"war in Iraq can still be won" Yay! - wait a minute - can still be won?

[Alexander's Horse]

The neocon agenda is truly wrong. Its their righteousness which is the worst part and blinds them. The arrogance is frightening, as is the link to Christian fundamentalism.

I don't think average Americans really have any idea how hated they are becoming in the world. This is a truly terrible development. All free countries need the US to be strong and respected.

The only parallels I can think of is the way Germans were regarded in the first half of the 20th century, or the Brits in the 19th century. Almost the whole world wanted to see them go down - and eventually they did.

How the Bush Administration trashed the enormous international goodwill after 9/11 just staggers me. One of the biggest foreign policy blunders of all time.

But I can accept it now. We need to make the best of things. Maybe the US can turn it around but the US public will have to come to their senses. Sadly that will probably only happen through large loss of life in Iraq.

[Zevico]

The fanatical neocons are the followers, not the leaders. The leaders are pragmatic thugs, who lead their followers with ideology. Neocon ideology is the new religion of imperial America. It's adherents are the neo-conned.

I put both Cheney and Rumsfeld in the leader category. Bush is another thing entirely.

Oh, but of course, because left wing conspiracy theorists are far, far better than right wing conspiracy theorists.

[techumseh]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Unfortunately I don't think it was as simple as stealing the oil. I suspect, and this is only a suspicion, that the morons assumed that a democratic Iraq would pump oil as fast as it could to rebuild, and that only US companies would get the contracts....

A democratic Iraq?? You mean a US appointed government, holding phony elections under US occupation? I wonder who's gonna win the election? I bet it's the pro-US party.

But you're right of course. It is more complicated than just stealing the oil. It's also about geopolitics and about using Iraqi oil money to pay US corporations to rebuild Iraq in the American image. But mostly it's about stealing the oil.

[Mr. Harley]

OK, their (the neocons) idea of a free Iraq, directly copied from the United States the neocons know they have a mandate for (creating it domestically as well as in Iraq), and to hell with local preferences and culture. I was stating their ideation, if you look at my posts since I joined you would know I've been opposed to this administration from the start. And I've buried family members due to their mistakes.

Techumseh, they don't want the oil. They want the power, the control, to reshape the world in the image they see as instrinsically right. That is why they are willing to stomp on the US constitution as well as meddle in the world. They KNOW they are right, and that because they are right they will prevail. And of course this will include US led multinationals getting rich off of local resources, with a pro-large business agenda without silly things like workers rights, environmental regulation, etc.

They do not understand the old conservative values that it is process and institutions that make a country free and democratic. My country has done alot of things about which I am not proud, just as it has done things for which I am proud. What frightens me is that there is nothing this administration has done which fills me with pride. For the first time in my life I have been embarressed to be an American, or at least to be represented to the world by this administration. I have always worked against them, and politiced and supported local elections as best I could, but sadly that's not enough in today's disUnited States.

[Uncle Sparky]

Originally posted by techumseh

...

But you're right of course. It is more complicated than just stealing the oil. It's also about geopolitics and about using Iraqi oil money to pay US corporations to rebuild Iraq in the American image. But mostly it's about stealing the oil.

Of course it was about the oil, but here's the thing... Of all the corrupt, undemocratic, civil rights abusing middle eastern states, Iraqis had the closest to an American (or European) lifestyle under Hussein. As long as you didn't rock the boat, you could have a good consumerist lifestyle and if you played politics correctly you could do as well as your western corporate counterparts, at least prior to Bush I's war.

Ironically, the US Christian fundys have pretty well guaranteed that Muslim fundys will run Iraq, maybe not after the election, but after the ensuing civil war.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by shawnmmcc
Techumseh, they don't want the oil. They want the power, the control, to reshape the world in the image they see as instrinsically right. That is why they are willing to stomp on the US constitution as well as meddle in the world.

They want the oil also. In fact, I see it as geopolitical adventurism, which is a bid to establish US presence in a strategically important area. It's important because of oil, otherwise it'd be just a forsaken land.

[techumseh]

You're right Unc, there's plenty of irony in this mess.

Shawnmmcc, I think you're dead wrong. Wars like this aren't fought over ideas. Or for ego. They're fought for economic reasons. Money. Billions and trillions of US dollars. The ideology is simply the justification. The intellectual rationalization, if you will. This was true in the Reformation, and it's true today.

[techumseh]

And I sure don't agree with the idea that old fashioned conservative values would have prevented this mess, either. US policy is determined by it's "economic" interests, far more than by the specific politics of it's administration of the day.

I just saw in interview with Sen. Hillary Clinton, who advocated more troops for the Iraq War. Need I mention John Kerry? The Democrats are equally culpable.

The US has a long history of invasions and coups around the world under both Republican and Democrat administrations. Iraq, Indonesia, Iran, Vietnam, Chile, Nicaragua, Cambodia, Pakistan, Greece, Turkey, Guatamala, Panama, Zaire, Grenada, Panama, Australia.... the list goes on and on.

It's not the neo-cons specifically, though they are the worst of a bad lot. It's the US ruling circles in general.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by el freako
... and here we see Giancarlo's posting style in it's most minimalist, efficient form.

First insult someone.
Then assert the opposite of what they are saying whilst providing no counter-arguments


Giancarlo I salute you for perfecting your style

And I salute you for being and ignorant little man who doesn't know anything about the reality. You have your degree, but that doesn't gain you any sense of competence or realization of the facts. The counter argument is this: there are always logical contradictions in AH's argument.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by techumseh
You're right Unc, there's plenty of irony in this mess.

Shawnmmcc, I think you're dead wrong. Wars like this aren't fought over ideas. Or for ego. They're fought for economic reasons. Money. Billions and trillions of US dollars. The ideology is simply the justification. The intellectual rationalization, if you will. This was true in the Reformation, and it's true today.

The rap against the neocons is that they are driving policy for idealistic reasons, with economic and other consequences being damned.

[el freako]

Originally posted by Giancarlo

And I salute you for being and ignorant little man who doesn't know anything about the reality.

Careful little one, carry on like that and your lollypop will be taken away.

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You have your degree

What makes you think that?
I never said I had a degree in anything - why do you assume so?

Originally posted by Giancarlo
but that doesn't gain you any sense of competence or realization of the facts.

Well the difference between you and I is that I believe in what I say and am willing to put my money where my mouth is - whereas you are too chicken**** to stand by your beliefs when there is anything at stake.

But then again children with no experience of what the adult world is like often act like that so I suppose it's in character

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by el freako
What makes you think that?
I never said I had a degree in anything - why do you assume so?

Some around here told me you had a degree in economics.

Well the difference between you and I is that I believe in what I say and am willing to put my money where my mouth is - whereas you are too chicken**** to stand by your beliefs when there is anything at stake.

But then again children with no experience of what the adult world is like often act like that so I suppose it's in character

You don't know anything. That's the difference between me and you. I know a lot more then you. You also need to shut up and grow up.

[el freako]

Originally posted by Giancarlo
You don't know anything. That's the difference between me and you. I know a lot more then you. You also need to shut up and grow up.

Well if that's true then put your money where your mouth is - my bet is still open to you.

Put up or shut up - unless you're still chicken**** that is.

[Alexander's Horse]

Ming!

My thread is being Fezzed!

[Giancarlo]

You're the chicken****, el freakalot.

AH, your threads collapse the minute you post them because they are pathetic trolls. Just as your attempted bashing of the US in the tsunami thread where I ripped you apart.