United States of Europe vs. Stalinland: Ukraine, pt. II

[Starchild]

Originally posted by Serb


Holy crap. The west is hopeless.
****

And yet, we run the world.

[GePap]

Question: why do any of you actually think this election will mean massive change? Who the prime minister is does not change the makeup of the legislature, nor the heads of departments, not the big economic players. An autocrat can change things dramatically fast- if Yushenko is a true democrat, he will have to go slow and work with the opposition. Besides, what about the court system? Are the judges old timers who owe their position to Kuchma and so forth? That's another thing to keep in mind.

Yushenko won with 52%- sorry, that is not a huge mandate for immense and radical change.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Oerdin


I'm guessing that on a hourly bases once taxes, health costs, and various other costs are computed your average German or Swede probably costs around $50 per hour. If I was a manufacturer I'd be running to the east so fast your head would spin.

The gap between cheaper than Swedes and better educated than SE Asians isn't very big, and there is already a bunch of other EEan countries competing for it, who just happen to come with the added advantage of EU membership.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

.

LOTM, you were rightly prone to condemn Putin heavy support for Yanukovych. Why are you so shy to condemn the West heavy (and obvious) support of Yushchenko?

Because the russian support has been massive including visits to rallies by Russian pols, and money that dwarfs the support given to Yuschenko. And because the Russians are screaming that our modest western support to Yuschenko is a coup, and virtually aggression, while ignoring their own much heavier support. And because they count as support what appears to be the honest monitoring of elections. What they have tried to do, and what you seem to have accepted, your friend apart, is the delegitimization of OSCE election monitors, with no particular basis, except that they OSCE election monitors have come up with results that are inconvenient. I mean if I thought the US and UK were nasty imposers of neoliberalism on the globe, Id be very unhappy about their ganging up on little Serbia, which certainly was defying globalization and neoliberalism, and the shift in Georgia toward neo-liberalism, and the UK-US alliance with neoliberal leaning states in east-central europe which threatens to make even the EU, the counterweight to neo-liberalism, into a neo-liberal bastion. Id then be very unhappy with people who found that say Milosevic was stealing an election, similarly in Georgia and Ukraine? BUT, alas, poor Spiffor, AFAICT its TRUE that there was vote fraud in all those places, massive fraud, and that the neoliberals in all those places actually won democratically. Even if it makes Blair and the neoliberals happy. (Just as I must accept that Chavez won, bastard though he is) Your only evidence is from two individuals whos debating techniques are to put it mildly, questionable, including groundless accusations and paranoia.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

This is partly thanks to you and Serb I don't think you guys are right on everything, far from it, but you know things that I don't, things that are certainly not broadly known in the West. And it excites my curiosity.

You guys prompted me to think about the Ukrainian situation without the propaganda-induced prejudices. Just like our Americans had me think about plenty of things US without prejudice, just like the Israelis has me think about plenty of things Israel etc.

It doesn't mean that I agree with you on all points (just like I often disagree with the Americans or the Israelis), but you and others have been eye openers.

Israelis taught you about Israel.
Americans taught you about America.
Russians taught you about Ukraine.

which one doesnt belong, Spiff?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Serb

You ask me to waste hell knows how many hours to make a research for you? Who will pay for that study?
Donetsk region alone is reponsible for 25% of Ukranian GDP. You have to believe me.

then stop repeating your alleged fact.

[Heresson]

Perhaps it's exagerration, but it's true that the eastern part has most of the (at least coal and steel) industry I guess.
That this industry wouldn't survive without gouverment subsidies, it's another thing...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I strongly disagree. Yushchenko is a corrupt hack who has already been Prime Minister. His coming to power comes along a grave political crisis, and a terrible division of the country.
It is very unlikely that such a bad president, in such a bad situation, manage to improve things any significantly. Actually, I expect many of the Orange supporters to be strongly disappointed as corruption and poverty will continue unabated.

If only the orange supporters were as informed as you Spiff. You after all, have learned the truth about Ukraine from RUSSIANS - I wonder if they have had similar opportunities.

This thread sorely lacks a UKRAINIAN.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


If only the orange supporters were as informed as you Spiff. You after all, have learned the truth about Ukraine from RUSSIANS - I wonder if they have had similar opportunities.

This thread sorely lacks a UKRAINIAN.

A Yushenko supporter,a Yunakovich supporter, both, or someone neutral?

[Heresson]

Hey, my grandparents come from Ukraine, so does one Serb's grandparent.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


A Yushenko supporter,a Yunakovich supporter, both, or someone neutral?

Ideally one of each, but anyone would be better than none. Its really silly that some person sitting in Stuttgart, physically closer to Kiev than some guy in Siberia, is talking about how grateful he is for learning about Ukraine from s aid guy in Siberia whos probably parroting the Moscow equivalent of Foxnews, or worse.

[Giancarlo]

This thread needs somebody who lives in the country and was born there. A Yushchenko supporter could tell us about the facts and how the country was being operated from Moscow even after its independence, as Kuchma is a lackey for Moscow.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Heresson
Hey, my grandparents come from Ukraine, so does one Serb's grandparent.

yah, well, my father in law was born in whats today the westernmost part of ukraine. Didnt make him an expert on Ukrainian politics.

We need someone who actually can give details, whos involved, the way Serb could on RUSSIAN politics, or you could on Polish politics.

[Giancarlo]

What we have here are a bunch of pro-Moscow Russians who want Ukraine under their dictator's control, left wing communists from Europe, and pro-EU/US capitalists/open minded people. Nobody born and living in Ukraine.

[GePap]

We don't need any Fezism in this thread.

I am surprised no one has addressed my question- what makes anyone seriously believe this election means any actual significant change? Yushenko won with 52%- that means 48% of voters votes for others, or for Yanukovich- hardly a ringing endorsement for supposed radical change.