Is Islam a religion of peace , or is it inherently violent ?

[Dis]

that is a great post. but how does it explain them getting women to wear burkhas? Or did they wear burkhas before religion was introduced to them?

And some religions such as islam and christianity do preach that it is a woman's duty to serve their husband. And this has worked for many, many years.

[Imran Siddiqui]

but how does it explain them getting women to wear burkhas? Or did they wear burkhas before religion was introduced to them?

That is explained by the fact that the burkha is mostly an Arab thing. Go to, say, Pakistan, as I have and you will see most women wear only head coverings (not facial coverings) and not the full burkha.

[:) Smiley]

I stand by my position that hot dry weather leads to violence.

Global warming

[Dis]

I still cannot overcome the realization that Islam was spread through warfare though. Yes there has been some peaceful spread into Africa and Asia. But most of it was through warfare.

How can violence not be part of the religion?

[Impaler[WrG]]

Like I said the violent spread of Islam was predominetly done by Arabs in the middle east, when other groups were doing the spreading (such as in southeast asia) it was done with less violence, To be honest thats my assumption because I know very little about the spread of Islam in South East Asia. I just haven't hear anyone say it was spread by war, this seems typical of Asian/oriental society their is less religiously motivated warfare then in the west.

Smileys Hot dry weather comend though shurly a jest is actualy rather insightfull, but rather then violence it leads to the arab/semidic "hospitality" complex. In a desert environment physical survival is hard and dangerous at all times. People must travel from water sourse to water sourse and are usaly at the limits of their endurace by the time they reach them. For an able person to not welcome and provide comfort to a traveler is paramount to putting the travelers life in danger. Because most of the contacts are traveler-traveler their is a high level of empathy. In response Arab culture has a strong host/guest rules governing the exchange. In places ware climate is less dangerous their is far less travel and the sedentary population is far less friendly to an outsider, the traveler must thus purchace comfort which also helps to establish they are not some kind of bandit.

I belive though I am not 100% shure that the burkas and all other such head/body coverings were present before Mohammed lived and served practical usefull purposes in the desert environment, men wore similar robes as well. The low status of weomen was also a pre-existing Arab value that Islam did nothing to change. Likewise the high status of weomen in western culture has nothing to do with Cristianity and is a very resent development.

[Dr Strangelove]

I believe the Muslim rulers of India sent ships to Indonesia and subdued those rulers who would not see the light voluntarily. Like the European rulers were to do centuries later they enhanced their numbers by making local alliances then used their allies to increase the number of troops they could field.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Which passage , exactly ?

" Indra is praised for killing thousands of the abject tribes of Dasas with his arrow and taking great vengeance with "murdering weapons " . (Rig Veda IV:28:3-4)

One hymn mentions sending thirty thousand Dasas "to slumber" and another hymn sixty thousand slain.

A hymn dedicated to the weapons of war (Rig Veda VI:75) refers to a warrior "armed with mail," using a bow to win cattle and subdue all regions, "upstanding in the car the skillful charioteer guides his strong horses on whithersoe'er he will."

The arrows had iron mouths and shafts "with venom smeared" that "not one be left alive."

Hymn VII:83 begins, "Looking to you and your alliance, O ye men, armed with broad axes they went forward, fain for spoil. Ye smote and slew his Dasa and his Aryan enemies."


The basic belief of the prayers and sacrifices is that they will help them to gain their desires and overcome their enemies, as in Rig Veda VIII:31:15: "The man who, sacrificing, strives to win the heart of deities will conquer those who worship not." Some awareness of a higher law seems to be dawning in the eighth book in hymn 75: "The holy law hath quelled even mighty men of war. Break ye not off our friendship, come and set me free." However, the enemies are now identified with the Asuras and still are intimidated by greater weapons: "Weaponless are the Asuras, the godless: scatter them with thy wheel, impetuous hero." (Rig Veda VIII:85:9)



In the first book of the Rig Veda .... Indra is thanked for winning wealth in horses, cattle, and gold by his chariot. Agni helps to slay the many in war by the hands of the few, "preserving our wealthy patrons with thy succors, and ourselves." (Rig Veda I:31:6, 42) Indra helped win the Aryan victory:

He, much invoked, hath slain Dasyus and Simyus,
after his wont, and laid them low with arrows.
The mighty thunderer with his fair-complexioned friends
won the land, the sunlight, and the waters.4

Indra is praised for crushing the godless races and breaking down their forts. (Rig Veda I:174)

In the tenth and last book of the Rig Veda..... Indra still urges the heroes to slay the enemies; his "hand is prompt to rend and burn, O hero thunder-armed: as thou with thy companions didst destroy the whole of Sushna's brood." (Rig Veda X:22)

Hymn 50 of this most recent last book urges Indra to win riches with valor "in the war for water on their fields." Now the prayer is that "we Gods may quell our Asura foemen." (Rig Veda X:53:4)

The first indication of the caste system is outlined in the hymn to Purusha, the embodied human spirit, who is one-fourth creature and three-fourths eternal life in heaven.

" The Brahmin was his mouth,
of both his arms was the Rajanya made.
His thighs became the Vaisya,
from his feet the Sudra was produced." 5

The Brahmin caste was to be the priests and teachers; the Rajanya represents the king, head of the warrior or Kshatriya caste; Vaishyas are the merchants, craftsmen, and farmers; and the Sudras are the workers. In hymn 109 the brahmachari or student is mentioned as engaged in duty as a member of God's own body. "

http://www.san.beck.org/EC7-Vedas.html

So there does appear to be a whole lotta slayin' goin' on- well before Alexander or the Ghaznavids appeared on the scene.


Veils are not exclusively Islamic- veils were worn by Iranian Zoroastrian women, and also in the Byzantine and earlier Roman Empires.

[Az]

That is explained by the fact that the burkha is mostly an Arab thing. Go to, say, Pakistan, as I have and you will see most women wear only head coverings (not facial coverings) and not the full burkha.

Go to Persia.

Actually, don't go to Persia.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Azazel

That is explained by the fact that the burkha is mostly an Arab thing. Go to, say, Pakistan, as I have and you will see most women wear only head coverings (not facial coverings) and not the full burkha.

Go to Persia.

Actually, don't go to Persia.

Have you ever had Iranian food, Az ?

Damn tasty.


Very good looking Iranian women too. Well at least their ankles are.

[Az]

Have you ever had Iranian food, Az ?

Damn tasty.

We've got the immigrants.

Very good looking Iranian women too. Well at least their ankles are.

It's a real crying shame. Hopefully the scum that rule the country will be gone soon ( One can hope )

[OzzyKP]

I agree that religion is what the people make of it. And by and large Islam, like Christianity and any other religion is largely peaceful.

However, first influences I believe are important. Just the stand alone fact that the great prophet of Islam was himself a conquerer, and the founder of Christianity was a pacificst who was brutally tortured and killed are widely divergent starting points. Christianity spread through peaceful missionary means, going out to the barbarians in Europe and gaining pity by being killed by Romans. Whereas Islam was spread by the sword.

Not to say there hasn't been much violence from Christian nations, but these are radically different origins, and that does have an influence on a people.

[MrFun]

Actually, Christianity spread through a combination of peace and violence. There were missionaries who peacefully converted those who were interested.

But there were also feudal lords who sent out armed missionaries or outright warriors to give pagans a choice of either converting, or being massacred.

[Wernazuma III]

Originally posted by MrFun
Actually, Christianity spread through a combination of peace and violence. There were missionaries who peacefully converted those who were interested.

But there were also feudal lords who sent out armed missionaries or outright warriors to give pagans a choice of either converting, or being massacred.

And then there were missionaries and nations who didn't only convert those "interested" but operated with a combination of more subtle force and power, like toying with economic and social benefits within the community for those who converted, applying social pressure once a certain number of neophytes had been gathered etc.
And islam didn't solely with fire and sword either, actually in most regions the same power mechanisms worked: The system benefitted those who converted.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Wernazuma III



And then there were missionaries and nations who didn't only convert those "interested" but operated with a combination of more subtle force and power, like toying with economic and social benefits within the community for those who converted, applying social pressure once a certain number of neophytes had been gathered etc.
And islam didn't solely with fire and sword either, actually in most regions the same power mechanisms worked: The system benefitted those who converted.

yep

[Al B. Sure!]

That is explained by the fact that the burkha is mostly an Arab thing. Go to, say, Pakistan, as I have and you will see most women wear only head coverings (not facial coverings) and not the full burkha.

male bedouins and berbers also wear a burkha-like face covering. it was used to protect the face from the swirling sands. interesting how something so practical came to mean other things.


as for Christianity spreading peacefully... huh?

at least with the muslims, when they conquered territory they largely left the Christians and Jews alone except for forcing them to pay an additional tax. Christianity was spread through systematic and violent conversions. you could not safely be anything but Christian in a Christian nation (jews in Europe before the 18th century). At least the Muslims largely left the huge numbers of Christians in Spain, Sicily, the Balkans, Syria, Yemen, etc. alone excepting for a tax.