Discourse and Discussion - Cap/Com

[Agathon]

I refuted this pages and pages ago. The aim of individuals, in any system, is to externalize their costs onto others.

And in a minority of cases the "invisible hand" works to ensure that they in fact benefit others. The problem is that this is the exception rather than the rule, as is evidenced by the mass of laws and enforcement agencies that every developed society enjoys.

In the most important fields of human interest, the "invisible hand" works to destroy rather than create, as is evidenced by our sad record on the environment and our trouble feeding ourselves among other things.

[Az]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


So? Why should I give a **** about you?

Because you're not an *******.

Assumptions, assumptions, I know.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
What's the point of services if you don't have any physical products to sell?

You have to have manufacturing.

Obviously you need manufactured products. They just aren't as valuable to society as the free market would dictate.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Revolutions, like any other undertaking, require planning and forethought. So far, I have seen a great reluctance of daring to engage in such forethought, writing it off as "mere speculation."

Oh we've thought much about it. But our main concern is overthrowing you. We aren't going to be like Bush conquering Iraq. We will do an adequate job.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
You see...it is entirely unavoidable BECAUSE labor is NOT the end-all, be-all. Value is comprised of more things than sweat labor, and this is the point at which the entire on-paper system falls apart.

If you'd ever read Marx or even just paid any attention to me besides looking for weapons to use against me, you'd know that's a characture of our position. Labor is not the souce of all value. We never said it was.

After all, even if the state "owns" everything, it still takes resources (money and materials) to build the factories that the "non-exploited" workers will labor forcibly in.

How do you force someone to work in their own factory? How does a government composed of the population force the population to do anything?

[Velociryx]

Obviously you need manufactured products. They just aren't as valuable to society as the free market would dictate.

Ummm...methinks you miss the ENTIRE point of the Free Market.

I'll break it down for you. First word...Free. That means free from constraints. Unencumbered. The people participating IN the free market are likewise unconstrained. They may make whatever decisions they wish. IF manufactured goods are seen as important, it is because the PEOPLE who are IN the market, making decisions about what to do with their dollars have DECIDED that manufactured goods are important (and they did it allllllll by themselves...imagine that!)

Second word. Market. An analogy, in this case, for the sum-total of places where goods are bought, sold, traded, bartered, etc. Stores, flea markets, you name it. Places where people go to acquire stuff.

In and of itself, the market DICTATES nothing. The market is merely a mechanism which responds and answers to the will and desires of those participating in it. Your argument is incoherent.

As to thinking...yes. I'm sure you have. Trouble is, idle daydreaming is a very different beast than is coming up with a viable, workable, step-by-step plan for when the day arrives. Of that, we have seen scant evidence indeed, and what we HAVE seen looks eerily like "more of the same" old junk that didn't work the various other times it's been tried.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Labor is not the souce of all value. We never said it was.

Nope...and you don't need to. It is implied in your TOTAL and complete disregard for any other form of value creation. Capital creates value simply by being applied when and where it is needed. As such, the owners OF said capital deserve compensation EVERY BIT as much as those who do physical labor.

This takes the form of interest, generally, which as I recall, is a big taboo in the paradigm being discussed.

So clearly, there is not much consideration given there.

The reason you don't explicitly state it is because it is woven into the very fabric of the unworkable paradigm.

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Okay, you're off in your own world now.

[Velociryx]

Why's that? Because I disagree with you that you have ANY right to dictate to me what I need (see your own post above), or because you don't believe in such things as "interest"?

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Because you're contradicting me as to what my philosophy states. It's kinda like me telling you what you think or accusing you of beating strikers or enslaving Africans.

I thought the point of this thread was a discussion, not telling me what I thought?

[Velociryx]

So you DO believe that interest is okay, and you no longer believe in your right to dictate what I need to me?

I didn't think that was putting words in your mouth. One of the principle tenents of your paradigm is Rent/Interest = Bad

And earlier, it was you yourself who made the comment about taking one of my homes away.

How's that contradicting you, precisely?

If these are the things you believe, and I restate them back to you....that's hardly contracticting, is it?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Obviously you need manufactured products. They just aren't as valuable to society as the free market would dictate.

Ummm...methinks you miss the ENTIRE point of the Free Market.

I'll break it down for you. First word...Free. That means free from constraints. Unencumbered. The people participating IN the free market are likewise unconstrained. They may make whatever decisions they wish. IF manufactured goods are seen as important, it is because the PEOPLE who are IN the market, making decisions about what to do with their dollars have DECIDED that manufactured goods are important (and they did it allllllll by themselves...imagine that!)

Second word. Market. An analogy, in this case, for the sum-total of places where goods are bought, sold, traded, bartered, etc. Stores, flea markets, you name it. Places where people go to acquire stuff.

In and of itself, the market DICTATES nothing. The market is merely a mechanism which responds and answers to the will and desires of those participating in it. Your argument is incoherent.

Why don't you read the thread if you are going to interject into other people's conversation. You don't know what we are talking about.

As to thinking...yes. I'm sure you have. Trouble is, idle daydreaming is a very different beast than is coming up with a viable, workable, step-by-step plan for when the day arrives. Of that, we have seen scant evidence indeed, and what we HAVE seen looks eerily like "more of the same" old junk that didn't work the various other times it's been tried.

-=Vel=-

Well you want us to fail so I'll let you speculate about that. Nothing I can say really about it.

[Kidlicious]

Vel,

You might try politely asking Che his opinion. He's very knowledgable about the subject. You might learn something. Seriously, I've tried to teach you something about our philosophy, but you don't seem to want to learn about it. You just want to fight. You have a chance here with Che. Don't blow it.

[Velociryx]

Kid...I started the thread. I know precisely what you are talking about. I wonder tho, if you do...all this nonsense about the "market" dictating this or that.

As to the other. Yes. Admittedly I'd not fit into any of your Utopic plans. There is no place for me and my kind in your Utopia. This, however, does not prevent me from at least pointing out the most blatant flaws in your scheme (ie, unworkable economic ideas, a near-total lack of a cohesive plan, etc)....things you should at least attempt to address before you begin the revolution.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Che and I...and you and I, for that matter, have had a number of right civil conversations. I've learned a great deal about your beliefs from those discussions.

Among the things I have learned is that I don't belong in a society such as yours, I would not be happy there, there is no PLACE for me in your future, and because of that, I will fight tooth and nail to resist it.

If you think I should simply roll over and let your "utopia" (and I use the term VERY loosely) win, you're outta your ever-lovin' mind.

-=Vel=-