Discourse and Discussion - Cap/Com

[Kidlicious]

Vel,

You are going to see flaws in our philosophy, because it's hostile toward you. That's to be expected. But if you want to have polite conversation with knowledgable people you're going to have to be civil.

[Velociryx]

When was I uncivil, exactly?

When I pointed out the fact that Che point-blank said he wanted to dictate to me what I need, or when I pointed out (as you yourself have on NUMEROUS occasions) that interest is bad?

How is that uncivil?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Che and I...and you and I, for that matter, have had a number of right civil conversations. I've learned a great deal about your beliefs from those discussions.

Among the things I have learned is that I don't belong in a society such as yours, I would not be happy there, there is no PLACE for me in your future, and because of that, I will fight tooth and nail to resist it.

If you think I should simply roll over and let your "utopia" (and I use the term VERY loosely) win, you're outta your ever-lovin' mind.

-=Vel=-

I don't think anyone here expects you to become a communist. That doesn't mean that you can't have a civil discusion on the matter.

[Kidlicious]

You need to try to figure out exactly what people are arguing and what they mean, not just twist their words. It's the responsibility of the listener to do that. That's called civil discussion. Hostile discussion is when you just twist peoples words.

[Velociryx]

From Che: We're not gonna be stealing people's homes. Okay, maybe if you have two or more, but you don't need more than one home.

Not much twisting going on there, I'd say. Not too many ways to interpret that.

And the other key point....Interest/Rent = Bad thing.

Again I ask...how is pointing out both of the above uncivil?

How is it "twisting" the words spoken?

-=Vel=-
_{and you say *I* don't read!}

[Velociryx]

With a mantra including both of the above, what *really* gets me is that you seem genuinely surprised when people AREN'T just tripping all over themselves to sign up! :: shakes head::

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
With a mantra including both of the above, what *really* gets me is that you seem genuinely surprised when people AREN'T just tripping all over themselves to sign up! :: shakes head::

-=Vel=-

If you have three houses of course you aren't likely to be a communist.

[aneeshm]

Which means that successful people are not likely to be communist . Figures . . . . . . . . . .

[Velociryx]

And how do you suppose I got them? Am I just THAT much smarter/better/faster than you?

NO!

You and I prolly have similar educational backgrounds. I grew up in a VERY poor household (lived out of our red station wagon more than once....I remember spending more than a couple Christmases in the back of our wagon/house eating beans out of a friggin' can.

You can't GET much worse of a start than that, dude.

So...what? Am I some sort of financial wiz kid? A magician?

Hardly.

I got where I am IN SPITE of some really, collossally stupid moves on my part. Some King-Sized, Royal screw ups, and I STILL managed to make good.

That's how easy it is.

Granted, I coulda been a LOT farther had I not wasted so much time and screwed up here and there, but that's beside the point.

You and your Comrades make the system out to be some hellish, demonic slave pit, when the reality is that NOTHING could be further from the truth.

If a know-nothin', from-nothin' guy like me can make good without really TRYING (disclaimer: It was hard WORK, mind you, but it wasn't even what I set out to DO!), then that's a strong argument that most anybody can make it.

I could give you...GIVE you step by step instructions on how to do EXACTLY the same, and prolly better, on account of your not having to make all the stupid mistakes along the way.

But even if I did...even if I spelled it all out for you, I suspect you woulnd't do the first thing with the information.

Oh no....much easier to complain about how unfair the system is. Much easier to bemoan your current prediciment and daydream about a revolution that isn't coming than to actually go out and DO something.

I went through a similar spell...I know firsthand. Granted, I never went through a RED spell, but I've been in dark corners before.

If you are even REMOTELY interested in doing something other than daydreaming of the revolution, I can show you the way. It takes all of two things.

1) Determination
and
2) An honest effort/willingness to change/try new things

If you can do those two things, you're halfway home.

-=Vel=-

[Az]

ugh, vel, honestly, I don't get you.

I *will* succeed in the current system. I am not afraid for myself, for the most part. This doesn't mean that I can't believe that a radical change in the way things are done will improve the lives of all for the best. I am sooo sick of the portrayal of the left by the right as a bunch of people who couldn't make it on their own, and who try to whine their way through. Some of the best leftists, actually some of the best people I've ever known are very strong individuals who are very self-reliant, and self-sufficient. I don't think it's contradictory. It actually helps, no matter what ideology.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon

I refuted this pages and pages ago. The aim of individuals, in any system, is to externalize their costs onto others.

And in a minority of cases the "invisible hand" works to ensure that they in fact benefit others. The problem is that this is the exception rather than the rule, as is evidenced by the mass of laws and enforcement agencies that every developed society enjoys.

In the most important fields of human interest, the "invisible hand" works to destroy rather than create, as is evidenced by our sad record on the environment and our trouble feeding ourselves among other things.

Uh, you missed the point that externalizing your costs onto others (which is harming them without their consent) is by necessity illegal in a true L-F system.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Obviously you need manufactured products. They just aren't as valuable to society as the free market would dictate.

Why not?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Why not?

Because making them creates more polution.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker


Uh, you missed the point that externalizing your costs onto others (which is harming them without their consent) is by necessity illegal in a true L-F system.

No it's not. Forcing people not to is contrary to L-F.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
If you are even REMOTELY interested in doing something other than daydreaming of the revolution, I can show you the way. It takes all of two things.

****ing *******. You think I sit around on my ass all day day dreaming. **** you. I was trying to talk to you for your beneift. If you are going to act like this then **** you.