Discourse and Discussion - Cap/Com

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Kidicious
You just don't know what you are talking about. L-F has nothing to do with harming people without their consent. It is simply a philosophy of leaving the economy alone. That's it.

It's a philosophy of not regulating the market beyond the obvious necessity of preventing coercion and enforcing contracts. Without those two, it's just anarchy.

[Az]

It's hardly that easy, you know..... there is no organizational infrastructure. Here, we have some 90 real communes.

[Velociryx]

Indeed, and as I've said, some communistic ideals work well in small tribal groupings, so that's good if they're thriving.

As to setting one up...it would take some work, granted.

But I would think that if these aforementioned highly successful lefties REALLY believed what they were saying, it would be more than worth the effort to found or join one, for them.

But they're not.

This suggests one of two things:

1) Either not many highly successful people subscribe to the notion

or

2) They talk the talk but don't really believe it (at least not enough to give up their current lifestyle for it)

True?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
It's a philosophy of not regulating the market beyond the obvious necessity of preventing coercion and enforcing contracts. Without those two, it's just anarchy.

No it's not. It's assumed that the market takes care of these things. Why do you have this idea about L-F?

[Az]

You go on a tangeant here.

a) How many hardcore leftists are there? I am not talking about social democrats,etc., I am talking about true leftists.
b) How many believe in the idea of relatively small communes? ( Even I am not a straight favourite of them, I just want to move since it will give me an opportunity to live in a kind of a social enviroment I want to live in, in a way that decisions are made together, etc. )

After all of those gates, you see that the number of people that are left, all conditions are against the setting up of a commune. AND STILL, some people form them!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
1) Either not many highly successful people subscribe to the notion

People who are successfull capitalists? Of course not. The thing you are missing is that capitalists are parasites. We don't need that kind of personal success. We need success for society.

[Az]

Actually, I am certain that many successful capitalists also subscribe to that. I swear to god .

[Velociryx]

'Zazel - I wouldn't know, but I'll bet Che would. I have no idea how large the red party is here in the states. Large enough tho, to be sure, to form a commune.

Again tho, the point is that this is not what is occuring (your original point re: lots of successful people subscribing to the big red notion). My point is, if that were so, then why aren't they living the life?

I submit to you that either they're posing, or there are not, in fact, many people in that category who are true believers.

Kid: from webster's, the definition of parasite: An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.
One who lives off and flatters the rich

Sounds more like the description of the society you're pushing for. A society OF parasites.

Capitalists are enablers. Take your blinders off. Come out in the sun for a while. Stop being so angry at the world and come live fully in it.



-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Azazel
Actually, I am certain that many successful capitalists also subscribe to that. I swear to god .

Joking? They seem to measure success purely by their bank account. Isn't that what Vel and aheemn are talking about?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Kid: from webster's, the definition of parasite: An organism that grows, feeds, and is sheltered on or in a different organism while contributing nothing to the survival of its host.

One who habitually takes advantage of the generosity of others without making any useful return.
One who lives off and flatters the rich

Sounds more like the description of the society you're pushing for. A society OF parasites.

Capitalists are enablers. Take your blinders off. Come out in the sun for a while. Stop being so angry at the world and come live fully in it.



-=Vel=-

How the hell is working for a living being a parasite?

[Az]

Again tho, the point is that this is not what is occuring (your original point re: lots of successful people subscribing to the big red notion). My point is, if that were so, then why aren't they living the life?

I submit to you that either they're posing, or there are not, in fact, many people in that category who are true believers.

The vast majority of people don't live to achieve their dreams( their amazing dreams, not the white picket fence and an SUV, and the occasional vacation ) . That's true of any person, communist or not. It creates a real amazing person to do this thing from scratch. Just imagine having to start a company with no banks, or currency, in a communist society where you could live very well, happily, and most of the people despise the notion of capitalism.

[Velociryx]

Nope, Kid. Again, your blinders cause you to entirely miss the point.

You can't MAKE people care. You can't force altruism.

If you try, you end up...well, with exactly what every commie experiment has ended up with.

A big lotta nothing.

What you can do tho, is to create a system where each man or woman takes PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY for his or her own success in life, and make opportunities available.

Because economics is not a sum-zero game, the pie gets bigger as more people succeed.

When that happens, the social safety net that's in place becomes increasingly robust, and more and more people are lifted up, as the standard of living rises across the board.

What you find is that most (not all, to be sure) but most people who HAVE extra will give. Will pitch in to help out.

And where that falls short, we've got the social safety net in place.

Why are you so afraid of personal success?

This is mystifying to me.

Why is it so bad to hold a person responsible and accountable for his or her successes in life?

We are held accountable for being on time for work. We are held accountable for turning our homework in. In all areas of life, there is personal responsibility and accountability. Why should this be any different?

And yet you would craft a society where you are no longer responsible for your own well being. Let the state take care of everything. So it comes with the price tag of being told where and how to live.

Apparently, you're okay with that (or you see yourself as being one of the party bosses, in which case you will be given special consideration).

I, on the other hand, am NOT okay with it.

I don't want you, or Che or anyone else dictating to me what I need, or how I should live my life.

You go live your life, and I'll stay over here and live mine. 'k?

-=Vel=-

[Az]

Originally posted by Kidicious


Joking? They seem to measure success purely by their bank account. Isn't that what Vel and aheemn are talking about?

I was using "capitalists" not in the sense of holding the ideology, but role in society.

[Velociryx]

Hey! But after you steal all the stuff from the capitalist pig dogs, you won't have to work! Magically, the all knowing and benevolent state will $hit whatever money is needed to build you anything you want.

You can get some cushy do-nothing (or maybe even a work at home job) and stay cozied up in the People's Housing Project Number 3454350-B11 all day with your kerosene lamps, while the Missus goes out to wait in the breadline for a couple days.

Life will be PERFECT!

As to people living their dreams....this too, mystifies me.

I am. Wouldn't have it any other way. I can't imagine anyone of means NOT doing likewise.

And Kid, parasites leech off the system. Your fronted plan will create an entire society that leeches off the state run system. Parasitic to the core.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Azazel


I was using "capitalists" not in the sense of holding the ideology, but role in society.

I have to disagree with you. I don't think capitalists measure success any other way than my their bank account.