Discourse and Discussion - Cap/Com

[Ted Striker]

In a perfect world, sure.

[Az]

Hey, noone is forcing you to work. You can always have a free will to starve to death.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by aneeshm
Thus , if the worker thinks that he is being exploited , he can cease being exploited by simply terminating his contract . He can also attempt to negotiate what he thinks is a non-exploitative contract.

Negotiate? How would you do such a thing when the other side holds all the cards?

Find another job, when all jobs in a capitalistic system are exploitative in nature?

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
So tell me, Kid, when, precisely, have I exploited you?

Please fill me in, cos to my knowledge, you and I have never met?

You support the system that exploits me. The exploitation is systematic. You all have blood on your hands. It's not just a specific persons blood. It's the blood of all of my brothers and sisters together.

You can stop telling us how immoral we are for overthrowing your govt and your system, because of what you think we will do afterwords. What we do afterwords has nothing to do with your oppresive system that must be desroyed.

[Velociryx]

Takers.

That is the essential essence of communism as you have collectively explained it here.

Systematic takers.

Simply take what you cannot, or will not create for yourselves "for the good of all."

Take by force (or any available means) that which you cannot or will not create for yourself.

The rules of the game are spelled out and equitable.

Everyone has an opportunity to excel. Everyone has an opportunity to succeed.

What you do with that opportunity is entirely up to you. Freedom of choice. Freedom of mobility. Freedom to live your life as YOU see fit, and not have the state tell you what you do or do not need.

If you choose NOT to play the game by the equitable rules set forth, it does not mean that the rules are somehow unfair, or preventing you from playing, only that your own stubbornness and shortsightedness are preventing you from recognizing and grasping the opportunity at hand.

That then, is no one's fault but your own.

Labor is not the end all, by the way.

VALUE is the core that is missed by your paradigm, and there are MANY fascets of value, including labor.

There is value in knowledge and expertise. There is value in making resources available for the completion of a project that could not otherwise even be begun.

As both of these things create value that ENABLES labor to move forward, both of these things can be, and should be compensated.

That your system denies this fundamental truth is another of its manifold failings.

It is a house fashioned of smoke, relying on the tired, worn out words of an angry man from a long time ago, when the world was a very different place.

Market dynamics can be largely subverted. They were in soviet russia. They were in China. And yet, the black market thrived.

China's economy only took off after they began embracing market principles, which says volumes about the failings of the planned system.

And as always, you shy from specifics.

It is either because you don't know, or because you HAVE no plan.

In either case, it is clear evidence that if the revolution happened tomorrow, it would happen in slipshod, fly-by-the-seat of your pants fashion, and as a direct result of that near-total lack of foresight and planning, it would be every bit as thuggish and brutal as the other two major revolutions that came before it.

In short, you guys are nowhere close to being "ready" for the glorious revolution, and I pray that it never comes, because it will set this planet back two centuries or more, nearly overnight.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
In short, you guys are nowhere close to being "ready" for the glorious revolution, and I pray that it never comes, because it will set this planet back two centuries or more, nearly overnight.

-=Vel=-

It doesn't matter if we are ready. When we have our shot we will take it. Ready or not. We won't allow things to continue like this. Your sensational talk may rally your troops but it only makes us more willing to take a risk and pursue a better world - a world without capitalism.

edit: It never was about our plan. It has always been about your plan. Our goal is to end your plans Vel. When we do we will do the best we can with our plans.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Takers.

That is the essential essence of communism as you have collectively explained it here.

Systematic takers.

Simply take what you cannot, or will not create for yourselves "for the good of all."

Take by force (or any available means) that which you cannot or will not create for yourself.

So you oppose taxes?

[Kuciwalker]

There's a reason no one (except DF and Berz ) argue for anything approaching absolute L-F capitalism.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Flubber
If I accept this . .. so what? You can do things completely within your permits but if your acts cause direct damage to another, you will be liable.

my point is that a permit is a legislative act saying you may do X. It makes no sense for something then to be liable for damages that occur through them doing X in a completely non-negligent way.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Kidicious
Which is good. Services have more value in that they don't create as much polution.

What's the point of services if you don't have any physical products to sell? You have to have manufacturing.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Agathon
The aim of capitalism is to externalize your costs onto others.

I refuted this pages and pages ago. The aim of individuals, in any system, is to externalize their costs onto others.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Azazel
Hey, noone is forcing you to work. You can always have a free will to starve to death.

So? Why should I give a **** about you?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Kuciwalker
So? Why should I give a **** about you?

It's the human thing to do.

[Kuciwalker]

So you're going to "force" me to be human?

(btw, I support a social safety net, but not for the reasons you would.)

[Velociryx]

Nope....and I'm assuming you don't either. After all, even if the state "owns" everything, it still takes resources (money and materials) to build the factories that the "non-exploited" workers will labor forcibly in.

This requires SOME mechanism of raising fundage for those purposes...taxes seem the most logical means of doing so. Which of course means, that the laborers under said system will be taxed, thereby denying them a portion of the fruits of their labor. This in turn, smacks of the VERY exploitation you seek to avoid. Laborers NOT getting the full fruits of their work?! Oh the humanity!

You see...it is entirely unavoidable BECAUSE labor is NOT the end-all, be-all. Value is comprised of more things than sweat labor, and this is the point at which the entire on-paper system falls apart.

Well...one of the many, actually.

As to Kid's latest posting:

So you mean to undo the current system...unbuild it overnight WITHOUT a solid plan to replace it. This is a surefire recipie for anarchy which will cost untold thousands, if not MILLIONS of lives. HUMAN lives...you know...the very lives of the people you purport to be rescuing.

Something tells me that if THIS is your grand plan...essentially to wing it and hope everything comes out okay in the end, it will be every bit as spectactular a failure as the previous two major communist revolutions.

Revolutions, like any other undertaking, require planning and forethought. So far, I have seen a great reluctance of daring to engage in such forethought, writing it off as "mere speculation."

I ask you...without such "speculation" how will you have the first CLUE as to how to proceed.

You will be, from the first moment of the "Revolution" reduced to mere reactionism.

Not a stellar beginning.

-=Vel=-