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Once again Ned, State and NSC had questions. Do you totally disregard them or did you totally disregard my earlier post?
I addressed that issue earlier. What I said is this. Did Powell or Rumsfeld continue to argue that the evidence was doubtful after Tenet said what he said. The only evidence we have is that they did not.
I would echo che...how do you define "vital interest?" It's a very subjective term.
Do you think the answer is to lie? But that's the problem...if you have to lie to your own people to start a war, I think the term "vital interest" doesn't apply. Wars should be undertaken for our defense, not for establishing military/economic footholds in far-away lands.
You have got to be kidding. You cannot possibly justify then the wars conducted by Clinton.
I addressed that issue earlier. What I said is this. Did Powell or Rumsfeld continue to argue that the evidence was doubtful after Tenet said what he said. The only evidence we have is that they did not.
I haven't seen any evidence that they no longer had questions on weather or not the evidence of Iraqi WMD should have aq100% confidence level...and believe me I have looked. Care to help me out there with a source?
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003
Note how the right's answer has led to the U.S. doing things like Iran-Contra, installing Pinochet, backing military coups against democratically-elected leaders, etc. If you really think those are in our best interest, keep in mind that it's those things that prompted people to fly planes into the WTC.
I answered. You even mentioned it above--national interest is defense of the nation. If a lie needs to be made to justify a war, it's not in our vital interest.
To the first point, it isn't just the right. We could also look at Vietnam, Kosovo, or other escapades that the democrats have gotten us involved in.
To the second point, if the only justification for war is the US being attacked then what does it matter what Bush's evidence was. In your eyes nothing short of Sadaam using WMD would have required a response from us.
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003
Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Ned, are you serious? The Nedaverse becomes stranger and stranger day by day!
Powell, Cheney, Rumsfeld--they ARE the administration! Bush isn't the only one who speaks for it (hell, IMO he's a puppet mouthpiece anyway). Why do you think these guys were dispatched to the talk shows to speak about the reasons for invading Iraq? It was to MAKE THE ADMINISTRATION'S CASE. They weren't there acting of their own accord, stating their personal opinions. They were speaking for the administration.
The president is responsible for his administration, simple as that. Your attempt to disassociate him from his surrogates is just another unbelievable example of Republican disingenuity!
No doubt they were so dispatched. But the top dogs in the Admin would openly disagree with each other and with the president on occasion. See Cheney's views on gay marriage for instance where he states his views and respectfully agrees to disagree with Bush.
Bush said there were WMD's. Some in his admin questioned that evidence. Plato has made reference to those disagreements. So what should we conclude about this? That when Rumsfeld, Powell, Cheney and others say something that the left agrees with about Iraq, they are telling the truth and when they are saying something the left disagrees with about Iraq, they can be discounted?
No. The truth is that Bush did not censor his top people or control them like prior administrations. At times they went beyond what Bush was prepared to say, such as when Rummy argued that Saddam's threat was "imminent." Bush never said that. Bush argued that we needed to do something now before the threat became imminent.
Originally posted by Ned
Please tell me what US national security interests were involved in the two wars Clinton conducted in the Balkans?
If I say that the last time our national interests were at stake was in 1962, why would I then try and justify Clinton's wars?
I'm a communist, Ned, not a Democrat. Despite what you may think, that means I don't support the Democrats or their politicians. Nor do they support me or my views. I opposed Clinton's wars.
I oppose most of America's wars, though not the war in Afganistan. In fact, I am conflicted about Iraq, because despite the fact that we shouldn't have gone in there, it is now in our vital interests to see that Iraq doesn't became what Afganistan was or what Somolia is, a haven for those who would murder us.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
I haven't seen any evidence that they no longer had questions on weather or not the evidence of Iraqi WMD should have aq100% confidence level...and believe me I have looked. Care to help me out there with a source?
IIRC, there was a meeting among the top people to discuss the "evidence." This was the meeting where Tenet said what he said. The question is whether Powell and Rummy still maintained their ground on the lack of reliability of the evidence at that or any subsequent meeting with Bush.
Now, if there were such doubts in Defense and State, there is no evidence that I am aware of that Powell and Rummy openly disagreed with Tenet at that meeting. Had they done so, I am sure the press would have been all over those disagreements when the commission or Senate report (I don't recall which one) was issued.
If I say that the last time our national interests were at stake was in 1962, why would I then try and justify Clinton's wars?
I'm a communist, Ned, not a Democrat. Despite what you may think, that means I don't support the Democrats or their politicians. Nor do they support me or my views. I opposed Clinton's wars.
I oppose most of America's wars, though not the war in Afganistan. In fact, I am conflicted about Iraq, because despite the fact that we shouldn't have gone in there, it is now in our vital interests to see that Iraq doesn't became what Afganistan was or what Somolia is, a haven for those who would murder us.
Che, as a Commie, I thought you would be overjoyed by the Iraq war. The Communist parties in Iraq sure were.
except for the half-assed, under-manned, inadequate endeavor in Afghanistan and the first Saddam asswhooping, America hasn't fought a just war since WW2.
Originally posted by Ned
IIRC, there was a meeting among the top people to discuss the "evidence." This was the meeting where Tenet said what he said. The question is whether Powell and Rummy still maintained their ground on the lack of reliability of the evidence at that or any subsequent meeting with Bush.
Rummy maintained no ground. In fact, his department was responsible for the worst of the intelligence provided. Powell was never listened to, so it didn't matter what he maintained. He should have resigned in 2001, but felt it his duty to the country to remain.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Did you not read what Che wrote? He said the last time was the Cuban Missile Crisis. That would mean the Balkan wars weren't in our vital interests.
Are you so far in the Nedaverse you think che supported Clinton?
Boris, well I was clearly mistaken about that. My apologies. Also, I was unaware that you too opposed Clinton's several wars. I presume that you opposed them for the reasons you stated: they had nothing to do with the defense of the United States.
Originally posted by Ned
Che, as a Commie, I thought you would be overjoyed by the Iraq war. The Communist parties in Iraq sure were.
News flash, Ned: commies don't always agree (see the Sino-Soviet conflicts). In any event, what was good for the Communist Parties of Iraq isn't necessarily good for the world. The Iraqi communists have an open space in which to advance their politics (and are doing quite well, as a matter of fact, garnering up to 25% of the vote).
My duty as an American communist, however, is to oppose imperialism, and so I do. Imperialism makes capitalism stronger and perpetuates the rule of capital over the working classes. It also uses the bodies of the sons and daughters of the working classes to advances its interests.
Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...
Originally posted by Sava
except for the half-assed, under-manned, inadequate endeavor in Afghanistan and the first Saddam asswhooping, America hasn't fought a just war since WW2.
I thought you would at least approve of Clintons war on Haiti to install a communist president?
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