Lefties: Want to get rid of my Reagan avatar?

[chequita guevara]

You don't have to be so rude, comrade.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara

http://www.palestinercs.org/intifadasummary.htm

Total number of Palestinian deaths & injuries in West Bank & Gaza since Sept 29th, 2000 is 3,222 deaths, 27,484 injuries.[/url]

That's all I can find right now. Notice, however, that Israel has killed in four years what it took the Palestinians 84 four years to do to the Israelis.

Hmmm, 3,222 deaths? All of them civilians? Are you counting Hamas members carrying guns as civilians?

http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Printable.asp?ID=8792

Misrepresenting civilian deaths in the Palestinian-Israeli conflict, guest columnist Rashid Khalidi erroneously reported June 17 in the Los Angeles Times that “The U.S. media regularly fail to mention that three times as many Palestinians as Israelis–most on both sides civilians–have been killed since September 2000, when the second intifada began.” (“Can Hamas Cut a Deal for Peace?”)

Khalidi seriously overstated the percentage of Palestinian civilian casualties. According to the International Policy Institute for Counter-Terrorism, 2,329 Palestinians have died in the conflict between Sept. 2000 and June 15, 2003, and 785 have died on the Israeli side. On the Palestinian side, 867 were “non-combatants killed by the opposite side.” In contrast, on the Israeli side, 604 killed were non-combatants killed by the opposite side.” Thus, while it is true that at 76.9 percent, most Israelis killed were civilians, it is not true that most Palestinian fatalities were civilians. Only 37.2 percent of Palestinian fatalities were civilians. (See www.ict.org.il for details.)

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Hmmm, 3,222 deaths? All of them civilians? Are you counting Hamas members carrying guns as civilians?

I do not doubt that I am, but it's very hard to get an accurate count, since sites like the ones you linked also include rock-throwing children as combatants. The number of children who've been killed since Sep. 2000 is greater than the number of "non-combatants" your site claims are the real totals.

[notyoueither]

Correct. It would be somewhat difficult to come up with accurate figures. That is why I called bull**** on your 10 times claim.

btw, would a 16 year-old carrying an AK47 count as a child?

[notyoueither]

Have a gander at the number of adult, female deaths from your citation. It is interesting.

[notyoueither]

Incidently, they're already shooting at each other.

Now we'll see the wisdom of creating multiple armed camps who think targeting children is OK if it gets them closer to their aims, and who are accountable to no one except the king rat (if even him). I hope it goes well, but I really doubt it.

http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/1100453908068_25?hub=World

GAZA CITY, Gaza Strip — Mahmoud Abbas, the temporary successor to Yasser Arafat, escaped unharmed Sunday when militants firing assault rifles burst into a mourning tent for the deceased Palestinian leader, killing two security guards and wounding six other people.

The shooting raised grave concerns about a violent power struggle in the post-Arafat era. Some of the gunmen shouted slogans calling Abbas, a moderate who has spoken out against violence, an agent of the United States.

The bursts of gunfire came just hours after Palestinian officials set Jan. 9 as the date for elections to choose a new leader -- the first vote in nine years.

The temporary Palestinian leadership, headed by Abbas, has been trying to send a message of unity since Arafat's death Thursday. Arafat's responsibilities were divided among several leaders, and officials held talks with rival factions in Arafat's Fatah movement and the militant opposition groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

However, those rivalries burst into the open minutes after Abbas, the new PLO chief, entered the Gaza City mourning tent, where some 10,000 people -- including about 3,000 armed men, most of them police officers -- gathered Sunday evening. Abbas, accompanied by Gaza strongman Mohammed Dahlan and surrounded by security guards, shook hands with mourners.

Moments later, a group of at least 20 gunmen barged into the tent shouting, "Abbas and Dahlan are agents for the Americans!''

Gunfire then popped through the tent. It appears most of the shots were fired in the air -- the casualty toll likely would have been far higher had the gunmen taken aim at the large crowd.

Abbas' bodyguards hustled him into a corner as frightened mourners scrambled over plastic chairs to flee. Abbas was taken to Palestinian headquarters.

The gunmen reportedly melted into the gigantic crowd and escaped.

Speaking to reporters, Abbas tried to play down the incident.

"While we were receiving condolences, a huge crowd gathered there and then random shooting broke out, but not in my direction,'' he said.

Abbas said he did not hear any slogans against him and planned to continue talks with rival Palestinian factions. Abbas has tried in the past, as prime minister, to persuade militants to halt attacks on Israel.

However, militants signalled Sunday they were not interested in a ceasefire. In a Gaza City parade, masked militants unveiled a new rocket, which they claimed had an extended range that could reach the southern Israeli city of Ashkelon. The long, green "Al-Yasser 1'' rocket, named after Arafat, was shown to a cheering crowd as Palestinian security looked on.

Sunday's shooting raised questions about the ability of the Palestinians to carry out their election peacefully.

Abbas, also known as Abu Mazen, is widely expected to run for Palestinian Authority president. However, victory is far from certain. None of the likely candidates, including Abbas, has the stature of Arafat, and many Palestinians consider Abbas' generation of politicians to be tainted by corruption and out of touch with the masses.

"They realize very clearly that without a popular mandate, they can't make any important decisions,'' said Mouin Rabbani, senior Middle East analyst with the International Crisis Group in Amman, Jordan.

Abbas is expected to be a nominee of Arafat's dominant Fatah movement, but not necessarily the only one. He told the Arab satellite TV station Al-Jazeera that Fatah would soon choose a candidate.

Marwan Barghouti, a leader of the Palestinian uprising who is jailed by Israel, plans to run, according to a person close to him. In recent opinion polls, Barghouti emerged as the most popular politician after Arafat.

Abdel Sattar Qassem, a political science professor and political outsider, said he plans to run as an independent candidate. Qassem, a leading Arafat critic, said his campaign would focus on cleaning up corruption in the Palestinian Authority.

The largest opposition group, Hamas, also is considering whether to field a candidate.

Who emerges as the winner could largely depend on Israel and whether Abbas can produce results during the next two months.

Israeli officials say privately they would like to bolster Abbas, but fear any public embrace of him will weaken his standing.

Palestinian officials called for international pressure on Israel to ease conditions in Palestinian areas to permit the vote to go smoothly. They called for a withdrawal of Israeli troops from Palestinian population centres and said residents of disputed east Jerusalem must participate.

Israel has barred most residents in east Jerusalem from registering to vote. Many Israelis fear that allowing the city's 228,000 Arab residents to vote in such a ballot would strengthen Palestinian claims to the city.

Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon signalled flexibility on the matter Sunday, telling his cabinet he would not rule out the possibility of allowing east Jerusalem Palestinians to vote, meeting participants said. No decisions were made.

Israeli security sources said on condition of anonymity that they were considering turning over security responsibility in Gaza and West Bank cities to Palestinian forces. They gave no details on the timing.

U.S. Embassy spokesman Paul Patin said Washington would like Israel to help ensure that the Palestinian elections go smoothly. Patin declined to say whether the United States was pushing for specific goodwill gestures.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You don't have to be so rude, comrade.

Hey, at least I didn't put him on "the list".

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
You don't have to be so rude, comrade.

Yawn. I'll get to him later. I'm just hoping GePap notices this thread again. That was an actually entertaining discussion.

[Agathon]

You're pathetic.

Stop fooling yourself. You can't handle anyone on this board - hence your running away like a scalded cat at the first opportunity.

[MikeH]

Did nye ***** this much about the terrorist supporting aspects of Imran's avatar when he had Reagan?

[GePap]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
They really aren't a real threat now. Traffic accidents kill more people than terrorism does in Israel. The tactics aren't working, cost the Palestinian cause many would be supporters, and are as bad a thing for the long term interests of the long term interests of the Palestinian people as Irgun and Stern's use of violence were for the Jewish people. They are also neither here nor there when it comes to the question of wether or not people who make a civilian population the primary targets of thier campaign give a damn about freedom which is what my posts are about.

On part one: correct-not many Israelis get killed now from suicide bombings (thought Sharon also used that traffic comparison until March 2002, when that was not true)- but of course they get lots of attention, which is the point- people fear dying in a plane crash more than dying in a car crash- heck, you could make the same comparison to AQ- FAR more Americans died in car crashes in 2001 than terrorism in the US. Yet for some reason, we declared a war on terrorism, but not on car accidents.

And yes, these attacks have cost the Palestinians dearly in international support. But for a guy whose "give a ****" is so oft broken, I thought understanding a mindset that does not care about international reaction would be easy.

As for the second bit- what exactly does a belief in freedom have to do with not killing other people? Our glorious forefathers had no qualms in getting rid of them pesky previous inhabitants to spread the cause of freedom. Do you think Custer was at heart a secret totalitiarian?

[Imran Siddiqui]

Originally posted by MikeH
Did nye ***** this much about the terrorist supporting aspects of Imran's avatar when he had Reagan?

Of course not . Though, neither did I .

[lord of the mark]

I sympathize with Israelis, even (to some extent) those who live in the Palestinian territories. Yet I oppose as terrorism those who commit deliberate acts of violence against Pal civilians, and I applaud their prosecution by Israel, and am concerned that Israeli courts have not been firm enough with them.

I think Irelands claim to Northern Ireland is a strong one, and would not be unhappy to see a united Ireland. Yet I despise the IRA as terrorists.

I despise Communism, yet I opposed Reagans support for the contras.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Of course not . Though, neither did I .

At least you are consistent
Edit: LOTM as well

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Correct. It would be somewhat difficult to come up with accurate figures. That is why I called bull**** on your 10 times claim.

The figure I saw was from 1978, and it was 30,000 Palestinians to 3000 Israelis. I can't find it right now. It's in a book I own, but I can't find it at the moment.