Lefties: Want to get rid of my Reagan avatar?

[MrFun]

But you cannot see how Reagan's contributions made the crises and conflicts even worse in terms of gross human rights violations?

[notyoueither]

I can see how various leaders of the US, the UK, France, China, and the USSR made a whole lot of situations even worse in terms of gross human rights violations.

I can't however, blame Castro for 1,000,000 Angolans dead simply because he backed one side in Angola. That seems to be what Che wishes to do and lay it all at the feet of one, single president of the US. That is bull**** and I'll call it.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by notyoueither
I can see how various leaders of the US, the UK, France, China, and the USSR made a whole lot of situations even worse in terms of gross human rights violations.

I can't however, blame Castro for 1,000,000 Angolans dead simply because he backed one side in Angola. However, that seems to be what Che wishes to do and lay it all at the feet of one, single president of the US. That is bull**** and I'll call it.

Yes, I would agree with you there, as well. Reagan is not the sole blame for any of the human rights violations during his two terms as president -- even at the same time that he contributed to those gross violations.

Just as Reagan does not deserve full blame for the way the AIDS crisis worsened in the 1980s when there were some people who already saw what was happening, and knew as early as 1984 that something had to be done.

[MrFun]

On that note, I'm going to bed as I have to be up in less than seven hours.



night, Che and NYE

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by MrFun
On that note, I'm going to bed as I have to be up in less than seven hours.



night, Che and NYE

G'night.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Yep. It's a matter of whether you can stack up South African policy on Reagan's door step. I have to admit, I hadn't heard that brand of crap before.

South African policy paid for with U.S. money and using US arms. The CIA was heavily involved in these policies, and South Africa provided a convenient cover to dupe people like you.

Would SA have pursued the policy anyway? Probably. Does that reduce U.S. culpability? Not at all. If you and your buddies steal something, you're responsible, even if they would have done it if you weren't along.

I can't however, blame Castro for 1,000,000 Angolans dead simply because he backed one side in Angola. That seems to be what Che wishes to do and lay it all at the feet of one, single president of the US.

Well, considering that Cuba was defending the Angolan government from a genocidal terrorist group, that would be close to reality. Did they help prop up the Angolan government and thus perpetuate a war that might have gone to UNITA had they not done so? Possibly. Does that mean that Castro shares in the responsibility? Yes. Of course, seeing what UNITA did with the territory it controled, it is rather probable that a Savimbi run Angola would have been a complete disaster.

Nor did I lay it entirely at the feet of Reagan. I said he shared in the responsibility. He didn't have to get us involved again, but he did. Might peace have come sooner to Angola had he not done so? Possibly. Does he then share in the responsibility for those million dead Angolans? Absolutely.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
They [=Hamas and IJ] really aren't a real threat now. Traffic accidents kill more people than terrorism does in Israel. The tactics aren't working, cost the Palestinian cause many would be supporters

I wouldn't be so sure of that. If hijackings and suicide bombings didn't periodically make headlines the world over, how many people would care?

The #1 one comment on the Israel-Palestine conflict I've heard since returning to Sweden is "Why can't those bastards stop killing one another so we can hear of something else in the news for a change?".

[Az]

Got to say that Azazel's avatar explains everything about Arafat's hat collection. Baldy as a coot. He looks like an accountant.

Yep, Accountant. my thoughts exactly.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


South African policy paid for with U.S. money and using US arms. The CIA was heavily involved in these policies, and South Africa provided a convenient cover to dupe people like you.

Would SA have pursued the policy anyway? Probably. Does that reduce U.S. culpability? Not at all. If you and your buddies steal something, you're responsible, even if they would have done it if you weren't along.

I can't however, blame Castro for 1,000,000 Angolans dead simply because he backed one side in Angola. That seems to be what Che wishes to do and lay it all at the feet of one, single president of the US.

Well, considering that Cuba was defending the Angolan government from a genocidal terrorist group, that would be close to reality. Did they help prop up the Angolan government and thus perpetuate a war that might have gone to UNITA had they not done so? Possibly. Does that mean that Castro shares in the responsibility? Yes. Of course, seeing what UNITA did with the territory it controled, it is rather probable that a Savimbi run Angola would have been a complete disaster.

Nor did I lay it entirely at the feet of Reagan. I said he shared in the responsibility. He didn't have to get us involved again, but he did. Might peace have come sooner to Angola had he not done so? Possibly. Does he then share in the responsibility for those million dead Angolans? Absolutely.

You and your numbers. Where do you get them?

http://www.scaruffi.com/politics/massacre.html

Wars and Genocides of the 20th Century
by Piero Scaruffi
160 million people died in wars during the 20th century

(See also 1900: A century of genocides)

...

1975-2002: Angolan civil war (500,000)

and

http://web.mit.edu/cascon/cases/case_acw.html

Cascon Case ACW: Angola Civil War 1974-


Status Quo Side: Angolan government

Non-Status Quo Side: UNITA

Region: Africa

Conflict Type: External Intervention

Issues in Dispute: Governance, Resources, Strategic

Maps: [UTexas Angola maps]

Phase 1: 7/1974
Portugal's 400 year rule ended in 1974 [see ANG]. The opposition had comprised 3 tribally and ideologically distinct groups: the Kimbundu-centered Popular Movement for the Liberation of Angola (MPLA), founded in 1956 by exiled intellectuals who soon became Marxist; the non-Marxist Kongo-centered National Front for the Liberation of Angola (FLNA) with support from Zaire; and the Ovimbundu-centered (Angola's largest tribe) National Union for the Total Independence of Angola (UNITA), Jonas Savimbi's 1966 offshoot of FLNA. In the Portuguese-brokered Alvor Agreement of January 15 1975, the 3 agreed to an all-Angolan army and an interim coalition government prior to elections for a constituent assembly.

Phase 2: 1/15/1975
Each party maneuvered for sole control, their armies poised to attack. The coalition government took office on 31 January 1975.

Phase 3: 2/1975
The coalition collapsed, leaving Luanda under MPLA control. In the fall, with aid from Zaire to FLNA and South Africa to UNITA, these forces attacked the MPLA, which prevailed with Soviet aid and Cuban troops. FLNA ceased operations and UNITA lost Zairian and Tanzanian support. UNITA's US aid ceased in December. A costly stalemate ensued until 1988 despite S. African and US support (renewed under President Reagan) to UNITA. With improved US-Soviet relations in the late 1980's, multilateral efforts achieved an August 5 1988 agreement between South Africa, Cuba and Angola (MPLA) ending S. African and Cuban intervention (supplementing UN resolution 435 on Namibia). The level of conflict lessened.

Phase 4: 5/31/1991
Savimbi and Angolan President Jose Eduardo dos Santos signed a cease-fire on May 311991 providing for elections monitored by 600 UN peacekeepers. UNITA-US relations soured amid charges of human rights abuses and counter charges of a CIA plot. Elections on September 29 and 30 were upheld as fair by international monitors, with dos Santos the narrow winner. Savimbi's protests were denied by UN monitors, who sought a runoff election. Heavy street fighting continued.

Phase 3-2: 12/1992
Renewed, prolonged violence devastated the country. Despite a UNITA declared formal ceasefire in November 1993 and UN mediation begun in Zambia, destruction continued. The Lusaka agreement signed by representatives of both sides called for a cease-fire, rebel disarmament, run-off elections and creation of an inclusive national army. As minor skirmishes continued, the UNSC in February 1995 unanimously approved 7,000 peacekeepers to monitor the accord. The first contingent arrived in late May after Savimbi formally acknowledged dos Santos as the undisputed President. The peace process remained extremely fragile with cease-fire violations on both sides, and the demobilization of UNITA forces barely begun. On February 8, 1996, the UNSC extended its largest peacekeeping mission for three months. In December, 1996 the sides agreed to form a government of national reconciliation, and in April, 1997 a unified government was sworn in, But Savimbi, who controlled vast diamond resources, once again kept Africa's longest running war going by remobilizing UNITA forces. A disillusioned US began supplying the Angolan army, and in August 1997 the UNSC unanimously imposed air and travel restrictions on UNITA and suspended the withdrawal of peacekeepers.

Phase 3-3: 6/1998
The cease-fire began breaking down as government forces retook rebel areas and local police brutalized UNITA supporters. UN special envoy Alioune Blondin Beye was killed in a place crash and was not replaced for months. Government forces became diverted by interventions in the Congo civil war, while rebel forces retook more than half the countryside, displacing an estimated 200,000 people. Despite huge oil revenues, the government did little to relieve domestic misery, while UNITA continued to acquire huge revenues by diamond smuggling. In January, 1999, the government abandoned the Lusaka Agreement, which UN Secretary General Kofi Annan reported had no hope of implementation. On February 26 the Security Council voted to withdraw the peacekeeping mission, which had already cost $4 billion.

Copyright © 2000 Lincoln P. Bloomfield and Allen Moulton

Yep. That looks like it's all Reagan's fault.

btw, when did the election happen that made the MPLA the legitimate government of Angola? Before or after the Cubans arrived to ensure free and fair elections?

[notyoueither]

In other words, I disagree that Reagan was a man who deserves opprobrium for his record as a Cold War president. However, that doesn't mean that I support what was done in places like Nicaragua. On that we can agree.

What I asked Imran was if he supported terrorism. He said yes. What is your answer to that question, Che?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by notyoueither
What I asked Imran was if he supported terrorism. He said yes. What is your answer to that question, Che?

See the sig.