The Triumph of Christianity

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Heresson
Oh, forgot to reply to that;

Religion isn't an invention of the power over people.
Christianity was the masses' invention.
Religion CAN BE USED as a tool to keep the masses in line, but IS NOT a tool t.k.t.m.i.l.

It usually is used that way.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


That's even worse. Restricting immigration without removing these other impediments, will just mean that the Danish population declines.

Hopefully, since i belive that we are too many people on this planet. I wouldn't mind if the danish population stablized at approx 2-3 mill (current 5 mill). Rest of the world should do the same.

Originally posted by Heresson


Because they have no necessary skills, while Europeans won't accept jobs that there's lack of work in.

You are right about the skills, and then i ask, why accept further immigration of people without skills ? Can't quite figure out what you mean with the last sentence.

Originally posted by Heresson
But in the past, they did

Yes, but does that make it a right descission which cannot be undone ?

Originally posted by Heresson
Simply. If there was a monoparty system, for example, and You introduced political freedom, the monoparty will always lose at least some support

Got it, and disagree. It's centuries ago since we had the situation where religion was the dictator of society. Exotic religions has existed for a long period and it's those who get the growth.

Originally posted by Heresson
Oh, forgot to reply to that;

Religion isn't an invention of the power over people.
Christianity was the masses' invention.
Religion CAN BE USED as a tool to keep the masses in line, but IS NOT a tool t.k.t.m.i.l.

You are rigth about the point that religion isn't invented to control people - i don't expect our old ancestors to have invented thundergods, treegods, watergods etc. to control others - it was a tool to explain the unexplainable. As time went on and people learned more, most of those gods was dropped and that process is still working.

Christianity wasn't a mass invention, it was just a movement that got politicans attention in rome and was used as a tool for power.

Religion can certainly be used as a tool for controlling people, has been used massively as that earlier - both before and after christianity, and is still threatening to do so in present. Just to make it clear, i mean any kind of religion, not only christianity.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Hopefully, since i belive that we are too many people on this planet. I wouldn't mind if the danish population stablized at approx 2-3 mill (current 5 mill). Rest of the world should do the same.

Lead by example.

[BlackCat]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Lead by example.

I do, i don't have any children of my own (as far as i know )

I don't expect this to be a simple matter, it will take generations, but if it wasn't for immigration in the last 20-30 years, we would already be down by 4-5 %

[Drake Tungsten]

Same can be said for any society with its particular defining ideology. Read Toynbee or Braudel.

What's your point?

[Heresson]

Originally posted by BlackCat


Hopefully, since i belive that we are too many people on this planet. I wouldn't mind if the danish population stablized at approx 2-3 mill (current 5 mill). Rest of the world should do the same.

Yeah...

You are right about the skills, and then i ask, why accept further immigration of people without skills ? Can't quite figure out what you mean with the last sentence.

I mean that there are places of work, but British f.e. won't take them, because they want better and better paid jobs

Yes, but does that make it a right descission which cannot be undone ?

Don't know

Got it, and disagree. It's centuries ago since we had the situation where religion was the dictator of society. Exotic religions has existed for a long period and it's those who get the growth.

The point is that when You have 100%, You can not grow higher, You can just fall.

Christianity wasn't a mass invention, it was just a movement that got politicans attention in rome and was used as a tool for power.

But there was 300 years before it happened

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Same can be said for any society with its particular defining ideology. Read Toynbee or Braudel.

What's your point?

Would you have preferred that the societies of, say, the Sumerian gods or of the Romans never died out, but were still chugging along today?

Societies dying lead to societies being born. If Western society is "dying" as you seem to think (Seems to me it's stronger than any other society out there today), then it is to clear the way for the next one.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Societies dying lead to societies being born. If Western society is "dying" as you seem to think (Seems to me it's stronger than any other society out there today), then it is to clear the way for the next one.

But the replacement societies might not be better. It took Western Europe more than a thousand years to recover from the invasions of the German barbarians.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
But the replacement societies might not be better. It took Western Europe more than a thousand years to recover from the invasions of the German barbarians.

You have to look at things in the long term, however. When societies have fallen, there have always been a period of "volkwanderung," but the replacements that come tend to be more advanced, better cultures.

Besides, many historians would argue that the fall of Rome was not at all a bad thing for the west. The societies which emerged had their faults, but in many ways were superior to Rome. Read Norman Cantor's The Civilization of the Middle Ages. He points out that, overall, the standard of living in medieval Europe was slightly better than that of Rome, for the masses of peasants.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
You have to look at things in the long term, however. When societies have fallen, there have always been a period of "volkwanderung," but the replacements that come tend to be more advanced, better cultures.

A thousand years is a far longer term than I'd care to consider. Even if we only stick to the dark ages, we're still talking about five hundred years or more. That's ten percent of the period of written history.

[Heresson]

I think it was better for the peasants because they were not bound to the land (were they?), but the general level of science, of agriculture etc dropped.
Almost entire Gaul was farmland in Roman times, almost as it is today. In MA, it was largely covered with forests.
The number of population reduced too.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
A thousand years is a far longer term than I'd care to consider. Even if we only stick to the dark ages, we're still talking about five hundred years or more. That's ten percent of the period of written history.

Again, you're overstating how bad it was for people. I'd urge you to read Cantor's work. For most people, life post-Roman fall was at a higher standard than pre-Roman fall.

[Drake Tungsten]

But the replacement societies might not be better.

Exactly. I don't see how an Islamic Europe, for example, would be better than the Western society we have today. We're probably going to find out what it'll be like, though. Demographics are destiny...

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Again, you're overstating how bad it was for people. I'd urge you to read Cantor's work. For most people, life post-Roman fall was at a higher standard than pre-Roman fall.

Assuming Cantor is correct. Heck, there weren't even peasants in the Roman Empire 'till it was declining. I doubt one should compare the end of the Empire with the flowering of the Middle Ages.

Interesting sidebar. It was with the triumph of Christianity that Rome collapsed. Now that Christianity is triumphing in America, we too seem to be on the verge of collapse.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
A thousand years is a far longer term than I'd care to consider. Even if we only stick to the dark ages, we're still talking about five hundred years or more. That's ten percent of the period of written history.

Yes, but it's better than the 30,000 we'd have without the cult of Seldon.[/geek]