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Aggie, you're getting it wrong. France should stay in NATO and support American intervention everywhere, because it is actually America that has protected them from... wait, their own communist partisans in '45! 
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In Soviet Russia, Fake borises YOU. -
Gangerolf: Oh please, thats just because EU doesnt have a common defence yet. Once it has Nato will be gone.
Que l’Univers n’est qu’un défaut dans la pureté de Non-être.
- Paul ValeryComment
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Who really wants war these days apart from the Americans, a few disgruntled African leaders and Al Qaeda?
Even the Indians and Pakistanis seem to be giving peace a chance.Only feebs vote.Comment
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They should persuade the Swiss to drop the neutrality thing. Those knives of theirs can be deadly. I certainly wouldn't want to have a "thing for getting stones out of horses' hooves" pointed at me.Gangerolf: Oh please, thats just because EU doesnt have a common defence yet. Once it has Nato will be gone.Only feebs vote.Comment
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The fear here is that the soldiers of the 1st Infantry Division will return from Iraq merely to pack up and go back to Kansas, leaving behind a lot of local unemployment, a collapsed property market, a hole in the regional economy and increased transatlantic estrangement between the two countries.The Americans invest about €40m (£27m) in the region every year, and spend much more. The Verdi trade union believes the pullout will cost 80,000 German jobs in a country with stubbornly high unemployment of 4.5 million.So if America starts pulling out of Europe then some see it as "punishment" and if we stay then some want us to leave."Some think it's a punishment for us for being against the Iraq war," said Mr Kruse. "But most think it's just America restructuring its forces. You can't ask the Americans to stay forever. They've done their job."
Why don't you hold a vote and get back to us.
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@Tripledoc: The Nordic Defense Union was the brianchild of a number of leading politicians and generals back in the day. It was based on pretty much the same ideas as staying out of NATO - it wouldn't provoke the Soviets as much, and by staying of of the great power blocs maintain the neutrality that might let us stay out of any major war. Had it been intended to simply replace NATO membership, the reasonable option had been joining the NATO when it failed.
Ambivalence towards "big brother" Sweden may certainly have played a part in Denmark and Norway's rejection of Union, but more important was they felt it could not provide the necessary degree of security. That independence was not a primary concern should be obvious from the fact they joined NATO, which was (and is) dominated by the US to an extent Sweden could never have dominated a Nordic Defense Union.
Again, Sweden opted out of NATO because it was felt, rightly or wrongly, that this minimized risk.Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- ElokComment
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@Muad'Dib: The reason we want your troops to remain is they spend alot of money here.Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- ElokComment
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The nato alliance, and our continued troop presence in Europe is not worth while any longer. Demographics shifts are eventually going to force us out of Europe no matter what, we might as well get out now.Comment
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The main reason why NATO/US is still welcome in most places is that it saves European countries a lot of money. Having somebody else foot the bill for a part of your defense is a great deal that's worth a lot of humble pie.
Europe would have to increase spending substantially to have a viable integrated EU force. Europe might have to increase spending somewhat in any event, as the US draws down its forces.I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891Comment
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NATO must die.Comment
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Gist of the Article
The language it was clothed in
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You make a valid point DanS.Originally posted by DanS
The main reason why NATO/US is still welcome in most places is that it saves European countries a lot of money. Having somebody else foot the bill for a part of your defense is a great deal that's worth a lot of humble pie.
Europe would have to increase spending substantially to have a viable integrated EU force. Europe might have to increase spending somewhat in any event, as the US draws down its forces.
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"One day if I do go to heaven, I'm going to do what every San Franciscan does who goes to heaven - I'll look around and say, 'It ain't bad, but it ain't San Francisco.'" - Herb Caen, 1996
"If God, as they say, is homophobic, I wouldn't worship that God." - Archbishop Desmond Tutu
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One can hope that Europe will not breed the same type of extremists and expansionists that it has in the past. The US is in Europe to protect you from each other...and therefore keep us from having to bail you out yet again.
If we go home, don't call us next time your cities are burning.
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003Comment
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Nazi Germany?Originally posted by laurentius
We survived without ANY allies back in the 1939-1944Comment
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In accordance with recent version of history they weren't allies.Comment
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