Europeans Leaders are redfining their foreign policies

[notyoueither]

Well, the French have never had much use for NATO. That would be two of them.

Sir Ralph is from East Germany. He's a smart guy, and I always like to hear what he has to say, but I think that if I said he had little use for NATO he would not correct me.

alva is your swing voter. He is a committed Euro, but he would be open to discussion. Only, you have to take into account the severe level of emnity towards the US that is rampant in Europe at the moment. alva will listen to your case, but he will be pulled the other way by people who make you seem a subdued individual.

The radical Brit? He could go either way.

Dr Strangelove would be your base. He's on your side no matter what, we think.

In this thread, I count one vote for a renewed alliance. Three for tear it down, right now, and two who you might convince.

I think you lost this crowd.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Actually, most political leaders want the alliance to be bridged back together. Many people (probably most) also want the gap to be healed, although I don't see them want an alliance as integrated as during the cold war.

The question is about the concessions each side is willing to give for the reconciliation. Blair basically says we Euros should take the whole piss. It's probably the most pragmatic thing to do, but I don't see Chirac and his DeGaullian delusions accept such a deal.

DeGaullians

Bushians

Two of the same. Bush just like to blow up stuff more.

There needs to be some kind of reconciliation. Perhaps if John McCain becomes Secretary of State. But I don't think he would take the job. Powell has lost all credibility.

Bush talked about uniting after the election but I found his words to be hallow.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Spiffor
Actually, most political leaders want the alliance to be bridged back together. Many people (probably most) also want the gap to be healed, although I don't see them want an alliance as integrated as during the cold war.

The question is about the concessions each side is willing to give for the reconciliation. Blair basically says we Euros should take the whole piss. It's probably the most pragmatic thing to do, but I don't see Chirac and his DeGaullian delusions accept such a deal.

Well, DeGaulle did nothing but piss on everyone who ever was or could be an ally, so no love lost there.

[notyoueither]

And the French think Bush is bad?

[BeBMan]

About healing the gap - I'd like to see it.

The question is if it is possible. There are voices in Europe (and IIUC also in the US) who think the good old times are over, and both Europe and the US are drifting apart, not because of Bush&Blair or Chirac&Schröder, but because of deeper (and growing) cultural, political, and religious differences between both sides. Maybe Kerry could have delayed the process, but noone could stop or even reverse it (so they think).

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well, the French have never had much use for NATO. That would be two of them.

Sir Ralph is from East Germany. He's a smart guy, and I always like to hear what he has to say, but I think that if I said he had little use for NATO he would not correct me.

alva is your swing voter. He is a committed Euro, but he would be open to discussion. Only, you have to take into account the severe level of emnity towards the US that is rampant in Europe at the moment. alva will listen to your case, but he will be pulled the other way by people who make you seem a subdued individual.

The radical Brit? He could go either way.

Dr Strangelove would be your base. He's on your side no matter what, we think.

In this thread, I count one vote for a renewed alliance. Three for tear it down, right now, and two who you might convince.

I think you lost this crowd.

The Alliance is the best hope for maintaining world order

Though we have ALL dropped the ball in Africa, and every western nation should be ashamed of our conduct (or lack thereof) for failing to respond to African conflicts.

The upside is that the African Union forces seemed to be a somewhat effective force.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


Why not?

I guess I'm one of those NYE thinks doesn't want to see the alliance revived. It's rather true, but not entirely.

I'm all for a healthy relationship between the US and Europe (be it the EU, or individual European countries). Our common causes of worldwide stability and fight against worldwide terrorism would only suffer if there is too big of a rift.

However, I think Europe should stop being a vassal of the US, and rather be its equal. The cold war transatlantic alliance was built as a vasselage relationship, where the strongest part (the US) pledged to offer protection, but obtained obediance from its European allies.

This made sense during the cold war, especially for those countries who had no independent nuclear programme (= all European countries bar France, as the UK was depending on the US for its nuclear technology)

Such a vasselage relationship doesn't make sense at all today. The military threats against us are far inferior, and we are much stronger than we used to be. The terrorist threat requires different means, and the US cannot pledge to protect us, simply because it is a threat against which there can be no sure-shot protection nor retaliation.

I personally don't think we should heal the rift at any cost, i.e. I don't think we should go back to the relation as it was before. However, I would love it if both sides agreed to cooperate with each other, even while acknowedging our differences.

I would love to see ignorant and arrogant cowboys, and snotty arrogant cheese-eating surrender monkeys cooperate back again

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by BeBro
About healing the gap - I'd like to see it.

The question is if it is possible. There are voices in Europe (and IIUC also in the US) who think the good old times are over, and both Europe and the US are drifting apart, not because of Bush&Blair or Chirac&Schröder, but because of deeper (and growing) cultural, political, and religious differences between both sides. Maybe Kerry could have delayed the process, but noone could stop or even reverse it (so they think).

BeBro,

In my opinon, the alliance has actually gone two ways, with respect to how people in America view it.

There are those of us who have grown more towards the European view of the way things happen in the world, those people are the ones who voted blue and went with Kerry.

Then there are the conservatives that voted red, the ones that say, "I really don't care what the hell the rest of the world has to say."

Unfortunatley they spoke the loudest on election day.

But the rest of us are mad as hell, and have alot more motivation to reach out and rebuild the alliance.

Personally I have a great deal of remorse for what is going on here.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I guess I'm one of those NYE thinks doesn't want to see the alliance revived. It's rather true, but not entirely.

I'm all for a healthy relationship between the US and Europe (be it the EU, or individual European countries). Our common causes of worldwide stability and fight against worldwide terrorism would only suffer if there is too big of a rift.

However, I think Europe should stop being a vassal of the US, and rather be its equal. The cold war transatlantic alliance was built as a vasselage relationship, where the strongest part (the US) pledged to offer protection, but obtained obediance from its European allies.

This made sense during the cold war, especially for those countries who had no independent nuclear programme (= all European countries bar France, as the UK was depending on the US for its nuclear technology)

Such a vasselage relationship doesn't make sense at all today. The military threats against us are far inferior, and we are much stronger than we used to be. The terrorist threat requires different means, and the US cannot pledge to protect us, simply because it is a threat against which there can be no sure-shot protection nor retaliation.

I personally don't think we should heal the rift at any cost, i.e. I don't think we should go back to the relation as it was before. However, I would love it if both sides agreed to cooperate with each other, even while acknowedging our differences.

I would love to see ignorant and arrogant cowboys, and snotty arrogant cheese-eating surrender monkeys cooperate back again

We need more access to Eastern European females. As Reconcilliation Officer what the hell do you plan to do about this?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ted Striker




The Alliance is the best hope for maintaining world order

Though we have ALL dropped the ball in Africa, and every western nation should be ashamed of our conduct (or lack thereof) for failing to respond to African conflicts.

The upside is that the African Union forces seemed to be a somewhat effective force.

I agree, but many of them don't.

You can hope that most don't share their views, but it's like sticking your finger in the ****, I think.

Europe is gonna get itself on its own feet. That is good. They are not going to feel a need for a Transatlantic alliance. That's bad.

We'll have to fumble around for a bit, and a lot of people are gonna die, before we all come to our senses and realise that we really are over a billion Europeans, when it comes down to it.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


BeBro,

In my opinon, the alliance has actually gone two ways, with respect to how people in America view it.

There are those of us who have grown more towards the European view of the way things happen in the world, those people are the ones who voted blue and went with Kerry.

Then there are the conservatives that voted red, the ones that say, "I really don't care what the hell the rest of the world has to say."

Unfortunatley they spoke the loudest on election day.

But the rest of us are mad as hell, and have alot more motivation to reach out and rebuild the alliance.

Personally I have a great deal of remorse for what is going on here.

I sometimes feel the same about Europe. Don't get me wrong, there are lots of thing I love here, but sometimes I'd like to have the best of both worlds, US and Europe in one, but that's probably just dreaming....

[notyoueither]

Imagine...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
We need more access to Eastern European females. As Reconcilliation Officer what the hell do you plan to do about this?

Advise you to come to Prague and enjoy

[BeBMan]

NYE: I thought you'd say "Come to Canada!"

[notyoueither]

Well, we are the fusion.