Don't blame me I voted for Kerry or What can we democrats do to save the country!!

[Dinner]

Originally posted by Zulu Elephant
Thats what the British Labour party (see left) did through the 80s. The country got screwed in so many ways for 18 years - all because the Labour Party refused to change and reach out to the electorate. Before each general election Labour supporters told themselves "surely this time the public are sick enough of the Conservatives to vote for us" - if you can't gather support and broaden your appeal, it doesnt matter how much the electorate hates the other guys, they'll choose the devil they know.

Yep, that's why I'm beating my head against the wall everytime I read a post which says "we need to be real democrats and go hard left!!!"

We need to go where the votes are if we want to win elections. It's even better if we take votes from areas that used to vote for the other guy.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Lefty Scaevola
It wins Che, Ge Pap, Agathon, and Kidicious, does it not? That has to count for something. Or does it?

I say we burn and pillage the red states- make them red in a more real sense- then I think, they will do it without our help anyways. Just look at its denizens.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Oerdin


Yep, that's why I'm beating my head against the wall everytime I read a post which says "we need to be real democrats and go hard left!!!"

We need to go where the votes are if we want to win elections. It's even better if we take votes from areas that used to vote for the other guy.

Oerdins on the money. People were loking for any reason to abandon Bush and the alternative was decided to be worse. This is and was a race about in a large segment of the populations eyes the lesser of two evils. All the Dems need do is show that they are willing to go center and the Dems all of a sudden are the lessor of two evils. Going harder left makes them the greater of two evils.

[GePap]

I love to see centrist talk about how powerful they are and how they need to be courted, thats the way to victory- when in fact you people don;t become activists, don;t give money, so forth and so on. Bush owes his precidency to the nice religious right folks - not any of you "sensible centrists", and his policies shall reflect that.

Until "centrists" actually become a politically acitve group (which you are not), who gives a ****? The question is how to reframe the debate- that is what needs to happen.

The republicans only won a mayority in congress after they gave up on the center and moved right- that passion is what drove them into power. Centrists have no passion. And as long as you don't, pandering to you won't win elections either.

[Argos65987]

Originally posted by GePap


I say we burn and pillage the red states- make them red in a more real sense- then I think, they will do it without our help anyways. Just look at its denizens.

I know you are just kidding, but I think that saying (and worse, some actually believing) things like this is what really caused the democrats to not only lose the presidential election but also to lose more seats in both the House and Senate. "Red states" and their "denizens" are people. They have jobs and families. They are not animals, they are not sub-human, they are your neighbors and fellow countrymen.

People do not appreciate being spoken down to or ridiculed. They don't like being told that they just need guidance from their superiors or that they do not know what is good for themselves.

Until the democrats learn how to actually talk TO people instead of AT people they will have a hard time winning.

[Jon Shafer]

GePap: But the US leans right, especially now. When the #1 reason cited for someone's choice is "moral values" then if you're left you can't compete with that.

In this election Bush leaned right and Kerry leaned left. What happened?

[GePap]

We are not the ones stockpiling weapons in militia bunkers.

We are not the ones urging for the end of the world and cheering armageddon.

We are not the ones who think we have some heavenly mandate.

Those people DESERVE to be ridiculed- the USA will be better of without them- if they could only get their whish and depart this "mortal realm" faster, and leave the rest of us to the business of life.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Trip
GePap: But the US leans right, especially now. When the #1 reason cited for someone's choice is "moral values" then if you're left you can't compete with that.

In this election Bush leaned right and Kerry leaned left. What happened?

False notion. The left, which once was part of a crushing majority, allowed the right to define the terms of the debate over the last 35 year. We have our work set out for us, which is to redraw the debate once again.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by GePap
I love to see centrist talk about how powerful they are and how they need to be courted, thats the way to victory- when in fact you people don;t become activists, don;t give money, so forth and so on. Bush owes his precidency to the nice religious right folks - not any of you "sensible centrists", and his policies shall reflect that.

Until "centrists" actually become a politically acitve group (which you are not), who gives a ****? The question is how to reframe the debate- that is what needs to happen.

The republicans only won a mayority in congress after they gave up on the center and moved right- that passion is what drove them into power. Centrists have no passion. And as long as you don't, pandering to you won't win elections either.

Given your love affair with hard left and disdain for centrists, I assume you were then completely opposed to the proposition that Kerry fight the labeling of himself as a liberal. Naah that kind of branding and framing doesn't mean anything, right?

Face it liberal connotations have been accepted as inherently misguided and wrong in the majority of American's views. Playing to that base alienates most, and if this elections is a referendum moreso than the religious rightwing views do.

Deal with it move on and find a way to be less offensive. (Maybe a bath, deodorant, or some mouthwash might help)

[Dis]

we can expect more of this under Bush. I can't believe we live in this kind of society now. But I'm really disappointed no one has mentioned this outrage yet.

http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2004/Nov-05-Fri-2004/news/25184460.html

[Lefty Scaevola]

"More than 700 people were arrested on immigration violations"
It an out rage that 700 immigration crimminals were arrest and questioned. I think its a outrage that millions more have have not been arrest and kicked out.

[Dis]

if you read furhter down, a Las Vegas man was detained because he had a book about the holiday of rammadan.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Given your love affair with hard left and disdain for centrists, I assume you were then completely opposed to the proposition that Kerry fight the labeling of himself as a liberal. Naah that kind of branding and framing doesn't mean anything, right?

He needs to make the label be a positive one- liberal, as in, seeking liberty. And if he can't do it, then get a new brand, such as progressive.

Face it liberal connotations have been accepted as inherently misguided and wrong in the majority of American's views. Playing to that base alienates most, and if this elections is a referendum moreso than the religious rightwing views do.

And liberals need to change that- not to accept it, becuase if the right-wingers were able to make it a negative brand, we can make it a positive one.

Deal with it move on and find a way to be less offensive. (Maybe a bath, deodorant, or some mouthwash might help)

You forget we liberals are cosmopolitan urbane metorsexuals- if anything, the lower masses, neaderthals and rednecks are offended by our regular bathing.

[Drachasor]

I agree with Gepap after extensive pondering of this issue.

While I think there need to be numerous steps to ensure honesty and truthful statements in the election, the Democrats also need to simplify their message. We Democrats can no longer afford to list all the issues and our policies on them. We need to share the vision of the future we want to make, how we want America to look like in the future, what role we want it to have in the world, etc.

As I said though, equally critical is ensuring decently honest advertisements and helping to make sure the media starts to report on facts and pointing out lies.

-Drachasor

[Drachasor]

Originally posted by MalevolentLight
@ Drachosor. I'm glad people like you exist and support Democrats.

It is true that Bush lies a lot more than Kerry. No one on these forums was ever able to dispute that.

Like Bush, you try to cloud the issue with your attacks upon me, but I will not let you blur what is going on here: Bush lied more, people believed those lies more, Bush got re-elected.

-Drachasor