New DNC Chair?

[DanS]

My fiance and I actually had a half-serious discussion last night about leaving the country.

You're all talk, dude.

[Arrian]

Of course. I grew up here. I have family here. I love where I live.

A few years ago such a conversation would not have happened.

But you know what? I've got family in Canada and the UK (and Australia, for that matter). I'm beginning to question why I would stay in this country.

That in and of itself is quite a change, Dan. Ridicule it if you wish. I don't give a ****.

-Arrian

[DanS]

I'm not ridiculing your questioning, I'm ridiculing your lack of action. You're all talk.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Arrian
Of course. I grew up here. I have family here. I love where I live.

A few years ago such a conversation would not have happened.

Perhaps not, but thats just a sign of the insane and uncivil discourse on left and right in the last few years. Not the social reality of the country.

What was the big social pull of the Bush campaign? No Gay marriage? In fact gays rights to civil unions are more extensive today then they were in 1992, or in 1984, or in 1969 (when Stonewall happened - you know the police went on a riot in a gay bar - in NEW YORK CITY) Choice - thats been a matter of constant debate from Roe v Wade on. Death Penalty - do i need to remind you that Bill Clinton executed people as gov of Arkansas -were you planning on leaving the US then?

Maybe its something else?
What is it deficits? we had those in the 60's and 70's and 80s and in fact right through the late 90's. wars on questionable justifications? Grenada, Panama, ....


I just dont get what the existential despair is about - other than embarrasment at the monkey faced dyslexic one. And the mockery of those who toss out fascist and imperialist lightly, for decisions that may be wrong, but are indeed difficult decisions.

[lord of the mark]

Virgina Postrel:


'Cheer Up, Andrew

Exit poll data are here, and you can drill down for specifics by state or regions.
As I mentioned earlier in the post about Lupe Valdez's election, the results aren't as bleak for supporters of gay rights as you'd think from listening to triumphant social conservatives or despairing gays.

Nationally, gay marriage is a loser, but civil unions are a big winner, with 35 percent support (and 32 percent in the South). Assume that the 25 percent who back marriage rights (17 percent in the South), and you've got a clear majority (and a slim lead even in the South, where Bush won 32 percent of gay voters). The public is squeamish about "gay marriage," but not about giving gay couples public recognition and legal rights.'

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
What was the big social pull of the Bush campaign? No Gay marriage? In fact gays rights to civil unions are more extensive today then they were in 1992, or in 1984, or in 1969 (when Stonewall happened - you know the police went on a riot in a gay bar - in NEW YORK CITY) Choice - thats been a matter of constant debate from Roe v Wade on. Death Penalty - do i need to remind you that Bill Clinton executed people as gov of Arkansas -were you planning on leaving the US then?

Why would Arrian have known about Bil Clinton as governor of a southern state? As for gay rights- yes, gays have more rights today than in 1992- and that is what Arrian supports- and those in power today wan to go back, not forward, like those who came into power in 1992.

Maybe its something else?
What is it deficits? we had those in the 60's and 70's and 80s and in fact right through the late 90's.

They were smaller, and until the early 1980's the US was still a lender, not debtor nation. It took a lot to get rid of those deficits in the late 90's

wars on questionable justifications? Grenada, Panama, ....

Conflicts that took less than 2 months each, or that cost under 30 American lives combined hardly compare to Iraq. Those two interventions were part of a long American tradition of screwing around in L.A., like in nicaragua, Haiti, the Dominican Republic and so forth. Iraq is brand new.

I just dont get what the existential despair is about - other than embarrasment at the monkey faced dyslexic one. And the mockery of those who toss out fascist and imperialist lightly, for decisions that may be wrong, but are indeed difficult decisions.

I personally agree with Thomas Friedman in the NYT today- in power are people who want a different US than I do- not just policies, but the very values that motivate us. They want a place alien to what I know.

[Dinner]

So somebody name a few good centrist Democrats who might make a good DNC chair.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


Why would Arrian have known about Bil Clinton as governor of a southern state?

er, cause he made a point of running back to arkansas during the presidential campaign to sign the warrant, IIRC. It wasnt hidden or obscure, it was PUBLICIZED to show what kind of a guy he was.

[Arrian]

Originally posted by DanS
I'm not ridiculing your questioning, I'm ridiculing your lack of action. You're all talk.

For now, yes. Things have gotten bad enough for me to question. They haven't reached the point where I'll answer the question with a yes.

I grew up in a very Republican household, Dan. My parents LOVED Reagan (and so, then, did I). I have been very proud to be an American, I've loved my country... and that's crumbling. It's not something that happens overnight.

...

LotM,

What was the big social pull of the Bush campaign? No Gay marriage?

You're not actually going to question that it was a key component in the election, are you? Bigotry, intolerance - those things may not be new (of course they're not), but the party in power has exploited them wonderfully (:vomit to stay in power. That disgusts me.

This election is illustrative of a trend. A trend away from the ideals of the Enlightenment and towards backward social conservatism. That's a trend that both repulses me and scares the **** out of me. If it continues, there are other places to live.

-Arrian

[Arrian]

in power are people who want a different US than I do- not just policies, but the very values that motivate us. They want a place alien to what I know.

BINGO!

LotM,

The Death Penalty is not an issue I really care about.

-Arrian

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap


Why would Arrian have known about Bil Clinton as governor of a southern state? As for gay rights- yes, gays have more rights today than in 1992- and that is what Arrian supports- and those in power today wan to go back, not forward, like those who came into power in 1992.

Maybe its something else?
What is it deficits? we had those in the 60's and 70's and 80s and in fact right through the late 90's.

They were smaller, and until the early 1980's the US was still a lender, not debtor nation. It took a lot to get rid of those deficits in the late 90's

wars on questionable justifications? Grenada, Panama, ....

Conflicts that took less than 2 months each, or that cost under 30 American lives combined hardly compare to Iraq. Those two interventions were part of a long American tradition of screwing around in L.A., like in nicaragua, Haiti, the Dominican Republic and so forth. Iraq is brand new.


I personally agree with Thomas Friedman in the NYT today- in power are people who want a different US than I do- not just policies, but the very values that motivate us. They want a place alien to what I know.

Ronald Reagan wanted a place alien to what I knew. Of course progressive also want a place thats "alien" thats what makes them progressive.

And what they want is still rather more progressive than what America was actually like for most of my life. So they want to go back a little - thats the nature of change, two steps forward, one step back.

I wouldnt leave a country cause of what people want - id leave it cause of the reality of the society - if arrian and wife find a place they want to go to, best of luck to them - but to paint a dystopian picture of the US today is just silly.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
er, cause he made a point of running back to arkansas during the presidential campaign to sign the warrant, IIRC. It wasnt hidden or obscure, it was PUBLICIZED to show what kind of a guy he was.

Has anyone mentioned the DP here yet besides you? Of all the reasons to dislike the people coming to power, their support for the DP is minor.

[Arrian]

And what they want is still rather more progressive than what America was actually like for most of my life. So they want to go back a little - thats the nature of change, two steps forward, one step back.

That's the optimistic view, and it *is* borne out by History. However, I'm thinking I might not want to be a part of the one step back.

In 1947, my father left Britain (or, to be 100% accurate he left the deck of a British merchant ship in Newfoundland) because he didn't like the way things were going there politically. They went Socialist, and he went to Canada and then eventually the U.S. I might just follow that lead... although it might take me to the places he left.

-Arrian

[DanS]

For now, yes. Things have gotten bad enough for me to question. They haven't reached the point where I'll answer the question with a yes.

I grew up in a very Republican household, Dan. My parents LOVED Reagan (and so, then, did I). I have been very proud to be an American, I've loved my country... and that's crumbling. It's not something that happens overnight.

Spare me and everybody else the melodrama. You act like a frickin' baby who hasn't gotten his way and thinks everybody should feel sorry for him because of it. There are an almost infinite number of places outside the US where you can live and if you have lost faith in the American enterprise, then just leave. No explanations needed. You're only making yourself and others miserable in the process.

[Arrian]

Because I still love my part of America, Dan. CT, and New England in general. And I love my family & friends.

Those things are still #1.

Gotta run.

-Arrian

p.s. If the country shifted dramatically away from your values, I'd bet you might sound like a "baby" too, right after the election. So spare me the indignation.