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  • #106
    Originally posted by Boris Godunov


    Cheney made a bald-faced lie, and you know it.
    I will concede that point.

    He was also being, at the very least, quite misleading in his characterization of his visits to Congress. As the Democratic caucus points out, they rarely ever see Cheney, as when he does go to the Hill, it is usually to seclude himself with the GOP caucus and plot strategy. It's not as if he's there on the floor of the Senate in his official duty as the president of the Senate, which he implied.
    I think you are reading too much into what Cheney said. He simply said that he's president of the senate and comes in most tuesdays. That's true. I am sure if Democrat senators wanted to meet with Cheney, they could.
    'There is a greater darkness than the one we fight. It is the darkness of the soul that has lost its way. The war we fight is not against powers and principalities, it is against chaos and despair. Greater than the death of flesh is the death of hope, the death of dreams. Against this peril we can never surrender. The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.'"
    G'Kar - from Babylon 5 episode "Z'ha'dum"

    Comment

    • #107
      Originally posted by Ted Striker
      I would like to hear the reaction of non Americans when Cheney used El Salvador as a shining example of freedom under his watch.
      Well, it was just proving the point he is a closet fascist who deserves to be strung up by the B'zudrukka
      Some cry `Allah O Akbar` in the street. And some carry Allah in their heart.
      "The CIA does nothing, says nothing, allows nothing, unless its own interests are served. They are the biggest assembly of liars and theives this country ever put under one roof and they are an abomination" Deputy COS (Intel) US Army 1981-84

      Comment

      • #108
        I think overall it was about a dead heat in terms of content.

        Cheney tended to not comment on issues a noticeable amount of the time or totally change the context (such as the Coalition vs. Coalition + Iraqi causalties). Edwards wasn't able too much better, though, and this is important, he was able to show that Cheney was lying or twisting the truth many times (coalition causalties, voting records--80-some votes against defense compared to over 1000 votes in favor). This plays well into how Kerry shaped the last debate. Cheney came out a little ahead in the first half, and a little behind in the second.

        Appearence-wise/appeal-to-voters Edwards won. Domestic issues are almost always more important in determining who wins (that's how the independents are). Edwards came out far ahead here, and I think many of you have missed that. While just judging from what is said *without*context from outside you might think it was a tie or that one candidate was a little ahead of the other.

        However, Americans, in fact, are not doing that well. Almost all of the new jobs pay less and have less benefits than the jobs they replace. Additionally if you work more than 10 hours a week or aren't looking for a job, then you are *not* counted as being unemployed. Edwards made a very strong appeal to the voters here, whereas Cheney (as is the case with the Bush Administration) didn't seem to understand the plight of the average American. Most Americans aren't running a small business, for example, and the vast majority earn a lot less than 200k a year. It was this frank talk about jobs, among other things, that will cause Edwards to look a lot better to the undecided voters and the voters with employment problems now.

        That's why the result of this debate is likely to be an overall win for Edwards, and I think this explains some of the issues you guys have been uncertain about.

        -Drachasor
        "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

        Comment

        • #109
          Ok, who was debating again?

          Comment

          • #110
            Cheney "lying" about meeting Kerry for the first time is about as important as the pen (or whatever) that Kerry took out during his debate that breached the rules. I didn't see much of it, but I did not like how Edwards was during the debate, although I can't really put my finger on it. Not that I loved what I saw of Cheney, but with him I expected to see a Bush man and that's what I got.

            Comment

            • #111
              Ok, who was debating again?


              Ted Striker and me .
              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

              Comment

              • #112
                Originally posted by Gibsie
                Cheney "lying" about meeting Kerry for the first time is about as important as the pen (or whatever) that Kerry took out during his debate that breached the rules.

                Actually I think it is a little more important that the pen thing. I just have visions of attack ads with that quote and then pictures of them sitting down to breakfast. Follow that with a few Cheney quotes on Iraq and the "ya right".

                To me, even if it was an attempt to be funny, it isn't that bright to say something so obviously false. There is no spin here-- he said something that was obviously and absolutely false.

                People expect some misrepresentations and slanting of positions but obvious lies can soemtimes hurt
                You don't get to 300 losses without being a pretty exceptional goaltender.-- Ben Kenobi speaking of Roberto Luongo

                Comment

                • #113
                  I'm sure the Republicans could make just as huge a fuss out of the pen thing, since it is cheating technically, but they haven't, for a change. And if you're going to take any of the debaters to task for lying, then it'd be nice if it was for the actual issues, not for badly-done banter.

                  Comment

                  • #114
                    Originally posted by Gibsie
                    I'm sure the Republicans could make just as huge a fuss out of the pen thing, since it is cheating technically, but they haven't, for a change. And if you're going to take any of the debaters to task for lying, then it'd be nice if it was for the actual issues, not for badly-done banter.
                    Be fair, the pen thing is a pure technicality, and blathering about that would go over very, very poorly with the voter.

                    Cheney claimed to have never even met Edwards because Edwards is never around. Refuting this would have more merit and look a lot better.

                    -Drachasor
                    "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

                    Comment

                    • #115
                      Well, it's a fact that neither Edwards nor Kerry are around the Senate much. Haven't been for a year and a half.

                      I don't think the dems should pursue this "lie", because all the Bush campaign has to do is continually point to the fact that both Kerry and Edwards haven't cast many votes for a long time, while Bush is busy signing bills and pushing his legislative agenda and Cheney is fulfilling his duties on the Hill like clockwork.
                      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                      Comment

                      • #116
                        Originally posted by DanS
                        Well, it's a fact that neither Edwards nor Kerry are around the Senate much. Haven't been for a year and a half.
                        Yeah, but there is a very clear reason why they haven't been around. I believe they were busy with something important.

                        -Drachasor
                        "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

                        Comment

                        • #117
                          So was Cheney busy. Doesn't mean he hasn't fulfilled his duties in both the spirit and letter of his portfolio. Likewise Bush.

                          I'd drop it, if I were you. It can only hurt Kerry and Edwards. They have been AWOL for a while now.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment

                          • #118
                            Originally posted by DanS
                            So was Cheney busy. Doesn't mean he hasn't fulfilled his duties in both the spirit and letter of his portfolio. Likewise Bush.

                            I'd drop it, if I were you. It can only hurt Kerry and Edwards.
                            It's a lot easier for Cheney and the President to move around.

                            I admit it isn't a big issue though; there are far more important things to discuss.

                            -Drachasor
                            "If there's a child on the south side of Chicago who can't read, that matters to me, even if it's not my child. If there's a senior citizen somewhere who can't pay for her prescription and has to choose between medicine and the rent, that makes my life poorer, even if it's not my grandmother. If there's an Arab American family being rounded up without benefit of an attorney or due process, that threatens my civil liberties. It's that fundamental belief -- I am my brother's keeper, I am my sister's keeper -- that makes this country work." - Barack Obama

                            Comment

                            • #119
                              It's a lot easier for Cheney and the President to move around.
                              That's not so. Indeed, because of the security and the necessity of ensuring presidential succession, it's much less easy for Cheney and the President to move around.

                              Sounds to me like Kerry and Edwards were busy chasing their own ambitions and not doing the real work alotted to them. I doubt Kerry and Edwards have made 20% of their votes over the last year and a half. At a minimum, they should return their Senate salaries to the congress.
                              I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                              Comment

                              • #120
                                Definitely. It's about as important as the pen-thing, as I said, in the "Who cares, let's move on to more important things that are actually relevent" sense.

                                Comment

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