The CIA's Attempt to Rig the Iraqi Elections

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Oerdin
This is becoming a discouraging pattern.

What is?

That someone is deliberately trying to **** things up in Iraq to score a few "points"?

[Whaleboy]

Never mind the rights and wrongs, never mind who gets hurt, never mind the suffering caused, if it's done by America, Drake approved .

[The Mad Monk]

What wrong thing happened? Point it out.

[Drake Tungsten]

He's not interested in the facts, MM. He just wanted to take a swipe at his betters...

[Whaleboy]

What wrong thing happened? Point it out.

Intelligence services intent was to rig the election. Whether or not it did it is irrelevant, though obviously it would be compounded if they had gone through with it. The demonstration of intent by people with such power is rather concerning in my opinion. Just imagine how you'd feel if someone who didn't like you discovered your address and bought a high-powered hunting rifle?

Just the fact that the CIA are thinking along these lines makes one question the integrity of modern "democratic" institutions, as well as the ability of the USA to recognise self-determination, even though that may not be in their own self-interest that is what they have promised the Iraqis, and surely in principle the rest of the world.

He's not interested in the facts, MM. He just wanted to take a swipe at his betters...

Betters? I rank you with Park Avenue and Fez!!

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


Intelligence services intent was to rig the election. Whether or not it did it is irrelevant, though obviously it would be compounded if they had gone through with it. The demonstration of intent by people with such power is rather concerning in my opinion. Just imagine how you'd feel if someone who didn't like you discovered your address and bought a high-powered hunting rifle?

Just the fact that the CIA are thinking along these lines makes one question the integrity of modern "democratic" institutions, as well as the ability of the USA to recognise self-determination, even though that may not be in their own self-interest that is what they have promised the Iraqis, and surely in principle the rest of the world.

It's an Intelligence Agency. It's what they do. Faulting them planning such an operation makes about as sense as faulting the Pentagon for making battle plans for every country on the planet -- and they do, you know. It's up to the civilian government to decide which plans are put into action and which plans aren't.

Your hunting rifle analogy is irrelevent.

Betters? I rank you with Park Avenue and Fez!!

You have disarmed yourself with vodka.

[Berzerker]

If we do continue to influence elections it will be similar to Egypt. Not terrible; but certainly not worth 1000 American and who knows how many Iraqi lives.

Egypt is one of the reasons we're in this mess, we've been supporting a dictatorship there and now we're going to support a "democracy" until enough people decide they don't want our crooks in charge of their country.

I would force you to support a certain candidate

Which is how Jefferson defined tyranny. I wonder if the Iraqis will compel their fellow citizens to support certain candidates, sounds like something the terrorists would do. Donations for Yusef Islam, donations PLEASE

When is the last time we punished someone.

Who's the latest author to have served in the Bush administration?

Hell, that person in Bush admin wasn't even punished for leaking the name of a CIA operative. But I don't feel, that proposing to fund certain candidates is immoral.

It is immoral, not only are you doing it with other people's money, the result will another mess that will cost lives.

I can't support many of the past actions of the CIA. But I feel it's justifiable in this case. As long as it was only funding campaigns and not miscounting votes, blocking electors etc.

And if the CIA et al win? How many elections do we plan on buying? It doesn't matter if this government creates the Constitution, it'll be ignored once "the legitimate" representatives of the people get elected. Imperative to this endeavor are the stakes Iraqis have in this system... We start removing those stakes when we fund pro-US candidates...

I for one don't trust the Iraqi's to setup their own constitution.

And that's what is driving this, a distrust of the Iraqi people. We have to trust them, we have no choice or we will see more bloodshed in Iraq.

[Whaleboy]

It's an Intelligence Agency. It's what they do. Faulting them planning such an operation makes about as sense as faulting the Pentagon for making battle plans for every country on the planet -- and they do, you know. It's up to the civilian government to decide which plans are put into action and which plans aren't.

Where did I claim that the CIA was worse than any other intelligence agency? They may say they make use of intelligence but historically, very little wisdom. It just so happens that the CIA worries me because of its size and power, it's ability to carry out these plans. And do you honestly think that the civilian administration has total control over the CIA, and that in any way would affect their "under the counter" influence? *Whaleboy glances over at Vietnam*.

Your hunting rifle analogy is irrelevent.

Hardly. While it is legitimate on paper such an action gives the beholder what I term the "potentiality of choice" (which differs from freedom). The actuality of that potential results in imposition, and in the case of a governmental organisation, a tyranny would ensue. Surely that is painfully obvious to you?

You have disarmed yourself with vodka.

I don't debate when drunk. You'll note my sobriety this morning .

[Nubclear]

/me feels tempted to "accidently" reveal the PM exchange with Drake...

[Berzerker]

It's what they do. Faulting them planning such an operation makes about as sense as faulting the Pentagon for making battle plans for every country on the planet

We make battle plans to better our defense and that of our friends - to kill anyone trying to kill us. Not the kind of message you want to send to the people you've just liberated... "We liberated you, and now we will corrupt your system because we make battle plans to wage war anywhere and everywhere"...

[The Mad Monk]

Which is why it was so fragging stupid to reveal this.

[The Mad Monk]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


Where did I claim that the CIA was worse than any other intelligence agency? They may say they make use of intelligence but historically, very little wisdom. It just so happens that the CIA worries me because of its size and power, it's ability to carry out these plans. And do you honestly think that the civilian administration has total control over the CIA, and that in any way would affect their "under the counter" influence? *Whaleboy glances over at Vietnam*.

The CIA ain't what it used to be, as was quite painfully shown during the 911 commision hearings. I never said you implied it was worse, I said you thinking it was somehow wrong made no sense.

Hardly. While it is legitimate on paper such an action gives the beholder what I term the "potentiality of choice" (which differs from freedom). The actuality of that potential results in imposition, and in the case of a governmental organisation, a tyranny would ensue. Surely that is painfully obvious to you?

Ah -- so you agree with me that this should never have been disclosed, correct?

I don't debate when drunk. You'll note my sobriety this morning .

I haven't yet.

[Chemical Ollie]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk


It's an Intelligence Agency. It's what they do. Faulting them planning such an operation makes about as sense as faulting the Pentagon for making battle plans for every country on the planet -- and they do, you know. It's up to the civilian government to decide which plans are put into action and which plans aren't.

That would be like Pentagon going to congress and try to implement attack plans on Canada or Mexico, just because they have such plans. If you present a plan to congress, you want it implemented, otherwise you would keep it hidden in your drawer, just in case it ever became feasible.

[MikeH]

True.

[The Mad Monk]

Actually, it's closer to the Administration going to Congress with the Pentagon's plans for attacking Iran -- because that's what they are trying to counter in this case.

It dosen't change the fact that they did everything the way they were supposed to, and that this should never have seen the light of day -- exactly because people would use this to the detriment of our efforts in Iraq.