So much for "ABC and CBS PWN BUSH"

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
No one else can defend it, since no one else has the copies that CBS has. It's CBS' job alone to defend itself and its stories. Other responsible news organizations are merely reporting on the news, not making judgements.

Two of the main arguments against the documents being legit (the font and the superscript) have been discreditted. That leaves two other knocks against them, the wife's testimony, which is, frankly, not relavent, since she wouldn't really be privy to government documents. The more serious one, however, is the fact that letter lines up perfectly in MS Word. That is extremely unlikely, but within the realm of possiblity.

Curiously, the White House has not gone ape****, as you would expect them to do if they were truely fakes. Forgery is a crime, and someone passing off fake documents as genuine which smear the President's name should be taken seriously (as were as the fact that if they are fake, then someone may have defrauded CBS).

At any rate, I am highly skeptical of their authenticity . . . for the moment.

PS font balls were available for Selectric II and III typewriters. I don't have an opinion one way or another on the documents, because I really don't care, but proportional spacing was available on typewriters way back in the 70's when I was using them for school papers.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by MarkG

Memos uncovered and touted by Rather's team appear to have been written in Microsoft Word, the experts said - a computer program that did not exist at the time Bush was in the Guard.

how can you tell that a printed document was written on a pc, and more specifically with which application?!?!?!?!?!?

IF someone was dumb enough to use Word with all default settings and styles and not switch from the default font, you could identify the document as being produced on a computer. I would expect Word for Mac to be able to produce the same output with the TNR font as Word for Windows. I'd also expect printed output on the same printer with the same font, paragraph and page settings to be indistinguishable, or at least conformable to Word, in Word Perfect and most other word processors.

[axi]

This is all proof that half of the American audience are hardcore jingoistic ******, for making what the candidates did in Vietnam a primary issue, and the other half are computer freaks, for analysing if and how all those mysterious documents were forged on a PC.

All the rest of the world:

a) REALISE THIER INSUFFICIENT EXPRTISE
b) DO NOT HAVE ANY OPINION
c) DO NOT CARE ABOUT ALL THAT ****

[The Mad Monk]

We didn't make VietNam the issue.

Kerry did.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Now its the Boston Globe's Turn to spin (misquote)

But specialists interviewed by the Globe and some other news organizations say the specialized characters used in the documents, and the type format, were common to electric typewriters in wide use in the early 1970s, when Bush was a first lieutenant. Philip D. Bouffard, a forensic document examiner in Ohio who has analyzed typewritten samples for 30 years, had expressed suspicions about the documents in an interview with the New York Times published Thursday, one in a wave of similar media reports. But Bouffard told the Globe Friday that after further study, he now believes the documents could have been prepared on an IBM Selectric Composer typewriter available at the time.

But heres what he (Dr. Bouffard) really said to InDC about their selective quoting

HOT UPDATE: Dr. Bouffard Speaks About Boston Globe!

INDC EXCLUSIVE!! MUST CREDIT INDC!!

(I'm dynamically updating as I transcribe quotes, so keep refreshing)

"What the Boston Globe did now sort of pisses me off, because now I have people calling me an d e-mailing me, and calling me names, saying that I changed my mind. I did not change my mind at all!"

"I would appreciate it if you could do whatever it takes to clear this up, through your internet site, or whatever."

"All I'd done is say, 'Hey I want to look into it.' Please correct that damn impression!"

"What I said to them was, I got new information about possible Selectric fonts and (Air Force) documents that indicated a Selectric machine could have been available, and I needed to do more anlalysis and consider it."

"But the more information we get and the more my colleagues look at this, we're more convinced that there are significant differences between the type of the (IBM) Composer that was available and the questionable document."

"The (new Selectric) typefaces sent to me invalidated the theory about the foot on the four (originally reported to INDC), but after looking at this more, there are still many more things that say this is bogus."

"... there are so many things that are not right; 's crossings,' 'downstrokes' ..."

"More things were looked into; more things about IBM options. Even if you bought special (superscripting) keys, it's not right. There are all kinds of things that say that this is not a typewriter."

"Any form of kerning may be critical (he hasn't decided yet). If there is any type of kerning, it obviously isn't a typewriter or it's definitely a typeset document."

On the Globe and others:

"You talk to someone on the phone and it comes out different than you said!"

On the source of the 1969 Air Force Supply Memo:

Dr. Bouffard received an e-mail from the address of Roy Huber, a noted retired forensic analyst in Ottawa, but a response indicated that it was Lynn Huber.

"I presumed that it was a relative of Roy. The document said that there are fonts from the IBM that don't have the foot on the '4.'"

The e-mail also contained an attachment to possible Selectric fonts that indicated a "4" had a foot, and the AF Memo that indicated such a machine was a possibility.

But since having time to analyze the fonts of the Selectric:

"We've looked into more and more IBM options and ... there are all kinds of things that say this isn't a typewriter!"

All I can say is our media sucks!

Link To InDC for Sava

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Agathon
The right better stick with militarism for the time being, as their economic ideas have been so thoroughly discredited.

[Kaak]

forensic document examiners say they are fake.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20040910-104821-5968r.htm

[MalevolentLight]

OH MY GOD!!! IT'S VAN WILDER!!! hi Kaak

[The Mad Monk]

HODGES SAID HE WAS MISLED BY CBS: Retired Maj. General Hodges, Killian's supervisor at the Grd, tells ABC News that he feels CBS misled him about the documents they uncovered. According to Hodges, CBS told him the documents were "handwritten" and after CBS read him excerpts he said, "well if he wrote them that's what he felt."


Hodges also said he did not see the documents in the 70's and he cannot authenticate the documents or the contents. His personal belief is that the documents have been "computer generated" and are a "fraud".

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/politics/NotedNow/Noted_Now.html

CBS is going to go through the grinder on this one...

[The Mad Monk]

Better and better...

More challenges about whether Bush documents are authentic

By Pete Slover
The Dallas Morning News


AUSTIN, Texas — The man named in a disputed memo as exerting pressure to "sugarcoat" George W. Bush's military record left the Texas Air National Guard a year and a half before the memo supposedly was written, his service record shows.
An order obtained by The Dallas Morning News shows that Col. Walter "Buck" Staudt was honorably discharged March 1, 1972. CBS News reported this week that a memo in which Staudt was described as interfering with officers' negative evaluations of the future president's service was dated Aug. 18, 1973.

That added to mounting questions about the authenticity of documents that seem to suggest Bush sought special treatment as a pilot, failed to carry out a superior's order to undergo a physical exam and was suspended from flying for failing to meet Air National Guard standards.

Staudt, who lives in New Braunfels, Texas, did not return calls seeking comment. His discharge paper was among documents obtained by The Morning News from official sources during 1999 research into Bush's Guard record.

A CBS staffer stood by the story, suggesting Staudt could have continued to exert influence over Guard officials. But a former high-ranking Guard official disputed that, saying retirement would have left Staudt powerless.

Authenticity of the memo and three others included in Wednesday's "60 Minutes" report came in for heavy criticism yesterday, prompting an unusual, on-air defense of the original work. Experts on typography said the memos appeared to have been computer-drafted on equipment not available at the time.

And the widow and son of the officer who supposedly wrote them, Lt. Col. Jerry Killian, who died in 1984, have said it wasn't his nature to keep detailed personal notes.

In its news broadcast yesterday, CBS said the documents were supported by both unnamed witnesses and others, including document examiners.

CBS anchor Dan Rather earlier told The Dallas Morning News that he had heard nothing to make him question the legitimacy of the memos. He attributed the backlash to partisan politics and competitive journalism.

"This story is true. The questions we raised about then-Lieutenant Bush's National Guard service are serious and legitimate," he said. "Until and unless someone shows me definitive proof that they are not, I don't see any reason to carry on a conversation with the professional rumor mill."

The Washington Post quoted Rather as saying CBS had talked to two people who worked with Killian — his superior, retired Maj. Gen. Bobby Hodges, and his administrative assistant Robert Strong — and both described the memos as consistent with what they knew of Killian. Hodges, who told CBS he was "familiar" with the documents, is an avid Bush supporter and "it took a lot for him to speak the truth," the Post quoted Rather as saying.




The Los Angeles Times, however, later quoted Hodges as saying that he believed the memos from Killian were not real. A CBS news executive confirmed that Hodges had changed his story.

Rather's interview with The Morning News concluded before the newspaper determined the date of Staudt's departure, but a CBS staffer with extensive knowledge of the story said later that the departure doesn't derail the story. "From what we've learned, Staudt remained very active after he retired," the staffer said, speaking on condition of anonymity. "He was a very bullying type, and that could have continued."

In the "60 Minutes" report, Rather said of the memo's contents: "Killian says Col. Buck Staudt, the man in charge of the Texas Air National Guard, is putting on pressure to 'sugarcoat' an evaluation of Lt. Bush."

Staudt was the person Bush initially contacted about Guard service, and he was the group commander at Ellington Air Force Base in Houston when Bush arrived there to fly an F-102 jet. He transferred later to Austin, where he served as chief of staff for the Air National Guard.

In the disputed memo, Killian supposedly wrote "(another officer) gave me a message today from group regarding Bush's (evaluation) and Staudt is pushing to sugarcoat it."

It continues: "Austin is not happy either."

The CBS staffer said the memo appears to recognize that Staudt has retired, since it differentiates between his displeasure and that of Austin, where he served his final Guard stint.

But another Texas Air National Guard official who served in that period said the memo appears to wrongly associate Staudt with his group command in Houston, and — based on that mistake — the memo distinguishes his views from that of the Austin Guard.

Retired Col. Earl Lively, director of Air National Guard operations for the state headquarters during 1972 and 1973, said Staudt "wasn't on the scene" after retirement, and that CBS' remote-bullying thesis makes no sense.

"He couldn't bully them. He wasn't in the Guard," Lively said. "He couldn't affect their promotions. Once you're gone from the Guard, you don't have any authority."

Bush has not commented publicly about the CBS report, and aides say his honorable discharge proves he fulfilled his obligations.


Copyright © 2004 The Seattle Times Company

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationalpolitics/2002032742_bushguard11.html

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Ohhh Please Please Please a public falling on ^the sword by Ra^ther. :hope:

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Kaak
forensic document examiners say they are fake.

http://www.washtimes.com/national/20...4821-5968r.htm

That's enough for me. The documents are in fact fakes. Isn't this a federal offense?

[Lefty Scaevola]

Hodges says CBS lied to him when they called about the documents, telling him that they had been handwritten by Killian, after actually seeing a copy of they, he said they were forgeries.

[Giancarlo]

This just keeps getting better and better.... so what do you guys think will happen to CBS after this? And Rather specifically?

[Drake Tungsten]

In a ju^st world, Ra^ther would be forced out for ^this disgraceful showing. Probably not going to happen, ^though, as Ra^ther is a legend a^nd a ^star member of ^the liberal media Spirit Squad. ^They'll find a way to protect him.