The Chechens' American friends

[MikeH]

Originally posted by Oerdin
If it matters the Guardian's take on all things American are equally negative and equally Bull****. Remember the Guardian's editor publicly admited that they were advocates and not journalists. They push a tilted left wing agenda because as a business they've found a market which will buy tilted left wing articles. It is a business for them and the Guardian isn't concerned about little things like fairness or journalistic impartiality.

Their self admited goal is to sell papers not search for truth or fairness in reporting. They freely play towards the hate and bias of left wing readers because doing so sells more papers. They are a tabloid but instead of specializing on articles about aliens making crop circles or anal probing rock stars they make anti American and anti Russian articles.

In the end who really cares about what is written in the Guardian?

Don't forget anti-Israeli, anti-Greek, (and especially) anti-British...

What a load of bull****. You know they used to tell US servicemen who came to serve here that it was a communist paper? Is this more of that same old ****?

The Guardian has always been a liberal paper, all media is biased and all businesses need to make money. It's no more biased than the Daily Telegraph is biased to the right. It is a real paper though and the journalists don't call themselves advocates.

The story posted here is not a news article but a comment, written by someone who works at a human rights group. I actually think it's pretty interesting and has a point, why doesn't the war on terror extend to chechnya for the US (and UK) gov't? It's questions like that governments don't like being asked, which is why someone needs to be asking them.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson


First of all, the independance WAS NOT granted. Again, otherwise You'd have to admit current attack is an agression on a souvereign state
When it comes to Dagestan stuff, it was a work of mr Basajev, the authorities of the republic condemned the attack.

No comments. I see now, you are hopless Heresson. In your hate towards Russia you have lost any sence of logic and became absoluttely blind.
How many times should I tell you- we signed a peace treaty with them. Do you understand this? A PEACE F*CKING TREATY!!! And they attacked us. You whining about referendums is absolutely stupid, becuase you have no proofs and what you are saying is basicaly- "oh, it's referendum in Russia, so it must be flawed by definition, who needs evidences?" There were foreign observers. We invited anyone to observe the referendum. ANYONE WHO WANTED TO OBSERVE THE REFERENDUM, DID SO.
The fact that Europen anti-Russian d!cks from concil of Europe refused the invitation, just proove that they predicted that outcome will not be in their favor. So they said- we will not come, because we need something to whine about after the referendum. They refused to come- their fault. There were plenty of other foreign observers, including from Muslim countries and no violations were found. So please shut the **** up.

[Sprayber]

I'll be the first to admit I'm not an expert on the whole history but I was under the impression that Russia only agreed to the de facto independence because they really couldnt do much to stop it at the time.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Serb


No comments. I see now, you are hopless Heresson. In your hate towards Russia you have lost any sence of logic and became absoluttely blind.
So please shut the **** up.

Could You lead one discussion without offending your oponents, hm?

How many times should I tell you- we signed a peace treaty with them. Do you understand this? A PEACE F*CKING TREATY!!!

So, did You approve their independance? And if so, is current war a war against an independant state?
And don't swear. You are not helping your cause by it.

And they attacked us.

Some Chechens attacked You, but without approval of Chechen gouverment. Do You think Cheches are idiots?
Only Muslim fanatics like Basajev can dream about "liberating" entire northern Caucasus. Maschadov condemned the attack.

You whining about referendums is absolutely stupid, becuase you have no proofs and what you are saying is basicaly- "oh, it's referendum in Russia, so it must be flawed by definition, who needs evidences?" There were foreign observers. We invited anyone to observe the referendum. ANYONE WHO WANTED TO OBSERVE THE REFERENDUM, DID SO.

And the ones who did thought it was a sham...

In March 2003, a Chechen referendum was approved favoring a new constitution stipulating the republic as part of the Russian Federation. However the referendum was met by criticism of not being truly representative of the desires of the Chechen people as conflict had still not been resolved.

In October that year, Akhmad Kadyrov won the presidency. But that election too was condemned by some Chechens as a sham, and international observers said the poll was questionable because of a lack of pluralism

http://www.globalissues.org/Geopolitics/Chechnya.asp

What You are saying is "we invaded this country because it's attacked us, and after we conquered it, its citizens cheerfully decided to join our state"

If someone is blind here, You are.

[Heresson]

Chechens with explosives got to Poland. They obviously wanted to ?thank? its people for the ideological help

Four Russian citizens were arrested in Poland. Three Chechens are among them, more than two kg of explosives were withdrawn from them.
(...)

http://english.pravda.ru/world/2000/12/12/1418.html

Russian paper...
I'm not suprised Serb is what He is

[Heresson]

Oh, did anybody mention that the chief of Izwiestia paper has been fored after publishing, as the only paper, an account of Bieslan tragedy that was different than the official version?

[Geronimo]

What is it they were forced to do?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Geronimo


I think it is. This is because referendums have not demonstrated that most Chechnians desire independance atm. Violent rebellion against a representative form of government deserves to be recognized as terrorism or banditry. The exception might be those representative governments that don't offer such local referendums to the populations of the region in question.

Otherwise the assassin who killed JFK might have to be considered not an assassin but rather an insurgent simply pursuing a political objective.

Actually, I thought it was targeting civilians that qualified as terrorism.

If the Chechens want to target the Russian army and have at it at 10 paces, more power to 'em, for the few moments they survive.

What makes them scum sucking pigs worth less than being treated with contempt is when they blow up people sleeping in their beds, or better yet occupy a school and massacre several hundred children.

****ing ****s! I hope the Russians catch every last one of them and treat them as they fully deserve to be treated.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by notyoueither


Actually, I thought it was targeting civilians that qualified as terrorism.

If the Chechens want to target the Russian army and have at it at 10 paces, more power to 'em, for the few moments they survive.

What makes them scum sucking pigs worth less than being treated with contempt is when they blow up people sleeping in their beds, or better yet occupy a school and massacre several hundred children.

****ing ****s! I hope the Russians catch every last one of them and treat them as they fully deserve to be treated.

I suppose I have to agree. At worst it would be banditry if they aren't attacking non government civilians.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson

Where are You from?

He is from US, I guess.

Why don't You understand Russia has no democratical tradition to say it in very polite way, and that the referenda in such cases are bound to be forged, or at least are let to be forged?

And you say you are unbiased?

Heresson- "I've no proof that those referendums were flawed, but they should have been flawed by defenition, becuase it was Russian referndums and as we all know Russians are barbarians, so we don't need to send any of our observers to watch those referendums". The end of quote.
Great apraoch.

I remember a Russian journalist who voted 5x in last Chechenian elections, and said he'd have voted more, but he had better things to do.

Remind me his name, please.
Anyhow, some journalists are just a bulsh!ters and liars. Had he really did so, why he didn't go to the court?

Also, was Puerto Rico occupied after a serie of uprisings, wars, depatriations and repatriations, and do Americans say "we hate them, and they hate us", like Serb says about Chechenia,
and was it just a couple of whiles ago?

Serb said that we have plenty of reasons to hate each other. It's a bit different.

USA politics suck, then, but that does not mean
Russian do not.

Oh, sure. Russian politics sucks, US politics sucks, only mighty kingdom of Poland is the last hope of humanity.

You think the war Russians led was less destructive? That rapes, killings, tortures on Chechenians made them love Russia and want to flee under her arms? C-mon....

1) It was them how started the violence.
2) The independednt government of Chechnya (bunch of warlords) opressed Chechens between 1996-1999 in a horible way. Is it so hard to imagine that people of Chechnya do not want that kind of independece anymore? That they want to have basic freedoms, education for their kids, free healthcare, etc, all other things that we had and have in Russia, instead of right to be sold and bought or right to be beaten to death with stones for minor "crimes" like cheating your husband? Between 1996-1999 in Chechnya there was no SINGLE operational school or state hospital. It was a time of chaos and opression, when thousands of Chechens (as well as Russians) were kidnaped/murdered. It was three years of crime and darkness. That's why thousands of Chechens who fought against Russians in Chechen war for independese between 1994-1996 joined Russians in 1999 in war agaist religion extermists who ruled Chechnya between 1996-1999.
Now you think that Chechens should go back to this era of crime and slavery?

These republics were not a part of Russia.
Yeltzin supported the split of USSR, not granted independance to anyone. He was just one of many.

BS. He destroyed the USSR. He and three other bastards signed the documed that destroyed the USSR by giving independence to the Soviet republics.

Id did? Really? So current war is Russian agression on an independant state?

De-facto Russia GAVE independece to Chechya in 1996, not de-juro. So, the second war was de-facto war against independet state. But, not an agression, because this independent state attacked Russia by invading Dagestan in 1999, despite we signed with them 5 year term peace treaty. De-facto it was war vs. independent state, but de-juro it wasn't.
Next question, please.

But it is a fault of Russian gouverment, not Chechen, sorry.

Look, smartass, in 1991-1994 they killed tens of thousands and expelled hundrends of thousands of non-Chechen population of Chechnya. What do you think Russians should have done? Just watch how whole North Caucasus become a huge bloodbath and do nothing?

Nor was by Chechenians (referring to 1994)

You are living in a fantasy world.

If Russians accepted Chechen independance from the start, there would be no "fighting"

Sure, sure, had Russians surendered, and let them slaughter Russians like an animals there would be no fighting. You smile everytime when somebody kills Russians, do you?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Serb

BS. He destroyed the USSR. He and three other bastards signed the documed that destroyed the USSR by giving independence to the Soviet republics.

Serb, it's clear that you see Yeltsin as a grossly incompetant or even malicious leader of Russia but it's less clear as to what you would have prefered to have the Soviet Union become. Do you wish that instead of splitting the old USSR into several countries an effort should have been made to maintain it as one country? Some sort of 'Greater Russia' with borders matching those of the USSR perhaps? How would you have directed events differently if you had been leader in Yeltsins place?

[Kidlicious]

Re: The Chechens' American friends

Originally posted by Serb
Enjoy you reading.



And it's from the guardian, of course.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/russia/article/0,2763,1299408,00.html

What really kills me is that your "free", "advanced", "ubiased" media, NEVER calls persons who took and kill hostages- terrorists, if those persons act in Russia.
American and European media calls them- rebels, guman, militants, guerrillas, even fighters sometimes, it calls them anyhow but NEVER calls them TERRORISTS.
Not that I'm really surprised, considering that CNN invites one of those f*ckers (who personally cut throats in Dagestan in 1999, but now wears an expensive suit and lives in UK) into their studio and broadcast his sh!t on whole world.

**** your so-called "freedom of speech".

You're right on Serb. **** America.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Serb
Heresson- "I've no proof that those referendums were flawed, but they should have been flawed by defenition, becuase it was Russian referndums and as we all know Russians are barbarians, so we don't need to send any of our observers to watch those referendums". The end of quote.
Great apraoch.

Nah, if the observers from democratic states would consider the referendum as something else than sham, I would as well.
Still, the only observers were ones of Wspolnoty Niepodleglych Panstw (whatever in English), which is under Russian influence (it is an association of post-Soviet republics but Baltic ones, I think Georgia was not quite willing to belong to it too originally) and which members are mostly undemocratic,
and from Arab League, which is 100% undemocratic.
Yet, these observers were supposed to judge this referendum. Oh well....

Remind me his name, please.

I will when I'll find it. It was given, but I'm leaving home this night and won't be able to browse all the old papers

Anyhow, some journalists are just a bulsh!ters and liars. Had he really did so, why he didn't go to the court?

What for?

[quote[
Serb said that we have plenty of reasons to hate each other. It's a bit different.
[/quote]

I will look for that part.
Nah, not in this thread. Too lazy to search for it elsewhere.
You're right, probably, but the meaning depends on the circumstances

found this

I hate to repeat myself

LOL

Oh, sure. Russian politics sucks, US politics sucks, only mighty kingdom of Poland is the last hope of humanity.

Nah, Polish politics suck too pretty often, just we have no opportunity to suck as much as You do.

1) It was them how started the violence.

Them? I though they are part of your glorious reign?
And no, Russians started it.

2) The independednt government of Chechnya (bunch of warlords) opressed Chechens between 1996-1999 in a horible way.

Then came the brave Russian knights.

That they want to have basic freedoms, education for their kids, free healthcare, etc, all other things that we had and have in Russia,

You have that in Omsk? Shock.
Your education is Soviet propaganda.

Between 1996-1999 in Chechnya there was no SINGLE operational school or state hospital.

Russians probably destroyed them during the war

It was three years of crime and darkness.

I do not doubt that. There were Poles kidnapped too;
but still I doubt Chechenians are happy at entrance of Russian soldiers.

But, not an agression, because this independent state attacked Russia by invading Dagestan in 1999

It was an attack by one of the groups in this country, and was condemned by the official authorities (Maschadov).
How many times do I have to repeat that?

Look, smartass, in 1991-1994 they killed tens of thousands and expelled hundrends of thousands of non-Chechen population of Chechnya. What do you think Russians should have done? Just watch how whole North Caucasus become a huge bloodbath and do nothing?

I thought Chechenia was itself 1mln people... Your claims are overcalculated probably, and no, I have not heard of these alleged deeds.
Instead, I've heard of a bloodbath made by Russians there.
Perhaps it is exagerrated, of course.

And when it comes to the quote posted by Kidicious:
Serb, it may be a shock for You, but not everyone that fights against Russia is a terrorist.
they are terrorists when they do sth like in Bieslan.
But not when they just oppose the entrance of Russian army.

[Zevico]

Serb---Daniel Pipes, a "neo-con", recently called Chechen 'militants' terrorists and indeed wrote a whole article *****ing about how so few people do call them terrorists.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Zevico
Serb---Daniel Pipes, a "neo-con", recently called Chechen 'militants' terrorists and indeed wrote a whole article *****ing about how so few people do call them terrorists.

You mean this article?