Free Speech on Campus

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Exactly how much more do I have to say, besides:

Therefore, I believe that life begins at birth, simply because the fetus isn't fully developed and capable until it is out of the womb, including the fact that it doesn't breathe on its own until it exits.

[Az]

Except that I've drawn the line at birth, as some draw the line at conception, and some elsewhere. For me, that is where the difference is.

Well, you've drawn the line, and it's good for you, but what does that argument have to do with reality? The creation of conscience in the fetus is a gradual process, it would be foolish to point at some time, and say "Aha, that's it!". So, I think that options for early abortion should exist, due to failure of contraceptives, etc., but this is no issue to **** around with.

And leave god out of this. It's not really relevant ( You see, I am an atheist, and still I am closer to "pro-life" than too "pro-choice")

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by loinburger
I'd think that there wouldn't be any debate on the subject

The debate isn't on when life begins or at least it shouldn't be (it's not as if the woman has a rock growing in her uterus). The debate centers on when it becomes "human" in the existential sense.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Azazel

Except that I've drawn the line at birth, as some draw the line at conception, and some elsewhere. For me, that is where the difference is.

Well, you've drawn the line, and it's good for you, but what does that argument have to do with reality? The creation of conscience in the fetus is a gradual process, it would be foolish to point at some time, and say "Aha, that's it!". So, I think that options for early abortion should exist, due to failure of contraceptives, etc., but this is no issue to **** around with.

And leave god out of this. It's not really relevant ( You see, I am an atheist, and still I am closer to "pro-life" than too "pro-choice")

God wasn't used DIRECTLY to my argument...just as a side note.

I just don't feel fetuses are complete until they leave the womb. That's the line I've drawn. It appears that you may have drawn a line too, though yours is a different type of line.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
I just don't feel fetuses are complete until they leave the womb.

That makes no sense. What's so magical about breathing air that seperates a child 5 seconds after leaving the uterus from 5 seconds before leaving?

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
That makes no sense. What's so magical about breathing air that seperates a child 5 seconds after leaving the uterus from 5 seconds before leaving?

The fact that it is complete. Before then it isn't.

[Az]

I've got the same problem Dino has got.

Now, I haven't drawn a line. I just came up with a solution that to me, seems fair to all: a possiblity of abortion during the very early stages of pregnancy.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Azazel
I've got the same problem Dino has got.

Now, I haven't drawn a line. I just came up with a solution that to me, seems fair to all: a possiblity of abortion during the very early stages of pregnancy.

No, you did draw a line. You won't go into the late stages of pregnancy. Also, you made circumstances. What about if the mother is going to have a child, then decides simply that she doesn't want it? I don't agree with that either, but it is a line that has been drawn. What's wrong with me drawing the line at birth?

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous


The fact that it is complete. Before then it isn't.

You're still talking gibberish.

[Az]

No, you did draw a line. You won't go into the late stages of pregnancy.

umm how a vague-ass definition like "late stages of pregnancy" is anything resembling drawing a line? I just said that abortion, on itself, is wrong, but there may be sircumstances under which it would be better to abort the embryo/fetus/whatever.

Also, you made circumstances. What about if the mother is going to have a child, then decides simply that she doesn't want it?

Well what if she already had the baby, and now decides she doesn't want it? Should she be able to kill him? obviously not.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
You're still talking gibberish.

I've already said why I believe what I believe. Twice. Now you're just being an ass.

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Originally posted by Azazel

No, you did draw a line. You won't go into the late stages of pregnancy.

umm how a vague-ass definition like "late stages of pregnancy" is anything resembling drawing a line? I just said that abortion, on itself, is wrong, but there may be sircumstances under which it would be better to abort the embryo/fetus/whatever.

You said a vague-ass statment of "early stages". That's a line. The circumstances which you'll abort is a line. My line is birth.

Also, you made circumstances. What about if the mother is going to have a child, then decides simply that she doesn't want it?

Well what if she already had the baby, and now decides she doesn't want it? Should she be able to kill him? obviously not.

You're right...because its fully formed, and thus, in my opinion, a human life.

You'll probably use the argument saying "oh, well then why doesn't abortion extend out to two years after birth then?" Because, in our society, the opinion stands and some abortions but certainly none after birth. In some societies, it wasn't wrong to kill anything until it reached adulthood. We've drawn a line, just as everyone everywhere will draw a line. It just happens, as I see it, that conception is not that line.

[Agathon]

Great! Another abortion thread.

As for the main topic, this is complete baloney. Universities are in a permanent state of a war of ideas. In some subjects the right has been losing for years, in some the left. Sometimes one side feels beaten down, sometimes the other. That's just life.

I have only ever seen one Professor ever get really political in a lecture, and that was over the Guantanamo detentions. That's once in over 10 years of studying and teaching.

About the most political I get is to make jokes about Bush - which everyone seems to enjoy, even the more conservative students.

I was once taught by a radical Marxist. I didn't find out he was a radical Marxist until years later, since he had disguised himself so well I thought he was a Thatcherite.

[Az]

You said a vague-ass statment of "early stages". That's a line. The circumstances which you'll abort is a line. My line is birth.

Actually, my solution doesn't have an arbitrary line of time. I am proposing that a board of people would review each request and would make a decision on that. The guidelines would be as I described them.

You're right...because its fully formed, and thus, in my opinion, a human life.

But it's not fully formed! The brain of a child continues to develope after birth, unrestrained by th womb. It's a mechanism allowing women to give birth more easily.

[MalevolentLight]

Well they probably scream about freedom, yet they don't allow others to have their freedom. They're just hypocrites.

They're also called liberals.