Russia prepared for pre-emptive strikes on 'terror bases' worldwide

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Heresson
Serbs perspective = Stalin's propaganda ministry

I thought everybody everywhere (including in Russia) recognized that Stalin was a brutal dictator and that once he had been dead for a couple years so people realized it was safe to speak out against his record. Has Serb ever said that Stalin was anything other than a brutal tyrant?

[Heresson]

He said He prefers him to Gorbaczow or Jelcyn.

[Geronimo]

Are you sure he wasn't just joking about the fact that Stalin is dead whereas the other two are still very much alive and capable of mischief? I find it hard to imagine anybody seriously regarding Stalin as anything other than a ruthless amoral tyrant.

[Kramerman]

russia =
*listens to sovi... errr... russian national anthem*

[Kramerman]

oh, btw, USA =

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Geronimo
Are you sure he wasn't just joking about the fact that Stalin is dead whereas the other two are still very much alive and capable of mischief? I find it hard to imagine anybody seriously regarding Stalin as anything other than a ruthless amoral tyrant.

You don't have to imagine. Just see Serb.

[Heresson]

Which doesn't change the fact that if not for his political views, he'd be a nioce fellow I guess

[Serb]

I bet you'll change your opinion now.
Here we go, here we go, here we go again.

Russo-Polish war part 2529:

Originally posted by Heresson


Why?

Ask yourselves.

Are You nuts? Versailles treaty created western boarder of Poland, not the eastern one.

Pure bullsh!t. Antante recognized Poland's eastern frontiers to be up to Kerzon's line. West Ukraine and Beylorussia, you took later, were beyond the Kerzon's line.

It was a bluff in order to force Lithuania to open diplomatic relationships. Have we attacked it?

Of course not, becuase USSR made it clear for you that he can sign military alliance with Lithuania in case of Polish agression.

My God, does anyone else know about it! Poland rules the world! It is the only one who forced everyone to accept Muenchen treaty!
Is it what they learn You at school?

Keep dreaming about rulling the world, warrior-pope. Poland doesn't rule the world and never will, however its actions provoked WW2.

First of all, it was shortly BEFORE Muenchen treaty.

My mystake, I admit. It was when Germany annexed Austria. March 10 Polish soldier was killed on Polish-Lithuania frontier, Poland decline Lithuanian proposal for joint investigation and start to prepare for war. March 12 Hitler moves forces to Austria. March 16 and March 18 Polish ambassador in SU called to Kremlin where Soviet foreign minister made it clear for him that USSR can sign military agreement with Lithuania in case of Polish attack. France tries to calm down Polnad and tries to get right of passage for Soviet troops through Polish territory in case of war vs. Germany. Poland declines. For France it means possible war vs. USSR, since Poland is the ally of France. In such sircumstances France and UK do not react to German annexion of Austria, despite they had to.

Secondly, Poland only took back part of what Tchechoslovakia anected by force shortly after ww1, when Poland was fighting against Soviets and was not able to protect its backs.

Well, well, well, so, when Poland on pair with Hitler participate in division of Czechoslovakia it's Ok, because Poles took only parts that Czechs took away from Poland earlier, but when Soviets do the same with Poland, because of absolutely the same reasons it is not Ok. It's f*cking agression of f*cking barbarians against an angel-like, innocent Poland.

Thirdly, Soviets were hostile to Poland.
Would You let Chineese armies through to Europe anyway?

1) Poland was hostile to Soviets. Soviets gave Poland independence when they took power and it is Poland who attacked Soviets in 1920, not the other way around. In early 30's USSR signed trade agreement with all countries of the world...except its neighbour Poland, who refused to sign such agreement. Poland was hostile towards USSR, not USSR towards Poland. The responsibility of hostality between our countries lays on Poland's shoulders.

2) Of course I would let Chineese to go through Russian territory if we have a military alliance. You seem to do not understand that right of passage, doesn't mean Cheense armies can go through our territory in battle formations- It means they can transport their armies through our territory via railways etc. Transported armies are not 100% combat ready. You can't get out of the train and start to fight efficiently. You can destroy an army which have been transported, pretty easy- cut its supply route, envelop and destroy. Besides, Stalin wasn't an idiot. Had he signed military alliance with UK, France and Poland vs. Germany he would never did something against the Poland and thus invlove USSR into war vs. Poland, Uk, France and Germany at once. Don't you understand this?

Who said so? Serb... Serb... Serb...

Wrong. Your foreign minister Beck said this.
From diary of Ribbentrop about his talks with foreign minister of Poland- Beck in 1939:
January 6, Munich. I asked Beck is it possible that Polnad could join the anti-comintern pact one day. Beck explained that currently it is not possible. The activity of Commintern presecuted by police in Poland. In accordance with Beck's words, Poland do everything to cooperate with us in fight against Commintern in feild of police measures, but if she will sign a political agreement with Germany about this, she couldn't sustain peacefull relationships with Russia. However, Beck promised that Polish future policy about this subject could develop in favorable to us direction. I asked Beck- do they give up ambition aspirations of marshal Plisudsky about claims upon Ukraine. He replied me with the smile that they already were in Kiev and that aspirations undoubtedly still alive today.
January 26, Warsaw. Mr. Beck didn't conceal that Poland pretend to Soviet Ukraine and access to Black sea, however he pointed to some dangers for Poland that will arise in case if Poland sign treaty with Germany against USSR. Mr. Beck said he will think about that more.

Alliance with germany was not possible not only because Poland didn't want the war, but also because Germany wanted Gdañsk as a part of the deal.
And if Poland wanted more lands, it would have taken them in Riga 1921. It took much less than Soviets offered it.

Danzig didn't belong to Poland at the first place. It wasn't your land. It was a city-state with its own government. 95% of its 400 000 population were Germans. They had their own currency- gulden, not your Zloty. Poland and Danzig had custom alliance. USSR established diplomatic relationships with Danzig in 1924. Show me the treaty which says that Danzig is Polish territory. Show it to me. You CONCIDERED it was your city, thus ignored the league of nations, but it doesn't mean IT WAS your city.

Defensive alliance only

Of course, defensive alliance against USSR.

Are You saying Poland wanted to get some Romanian land? Serb, this is absurd. Romania was our ally.

Your ally against USSR, not Germany.

What do you expect? Poland always had more sobre attitude towards Soviets than Britain and France. Soviets wanted to grab Polish territory (and did it fas and nefas). Guaranties? We've seen how much they were worth after the defeat of Germany. Poland would have ended under Soviet occupation, and I doubt France or Britain would do anything about it.

Wait a minute, so it was USSR who attacked Poland in 1920, not Poland who attacked USSR?
Get your facts straight- IT WAS POLAND WHO ATTACKED SOVIETS IN 1920, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. This is fact and it proves that it was you who wanted Soviet lands, not the other way around.
And once again, Stalin wasn't an idiot to fight against Germany, UK, France and Poland combined. It took five years and millions of lives for USSR+USA+UK+France to defeat Germany. Who in his straight mind would fight agaist Germany, UK,France, Poland ALONE?
NOBODY.

All is so nice in your picture, but why did this non-agression pact contain clausures about division of Poland?

It didn't. Yes, you get me right. IT DID NOT.
First of all, nobody ever seen the original of this secret protocal, only copies that were "slightly" edited by Yakovlev and his gang of "historians". Next, where in this "edited" (you should read fake protocol) protocol part about division of Poland or joint military action against Poland? WHERE? Show it to me. If division of Poland and annexation of Baltic states were part of the Molotov-Ribbentrop deal, why the hell Hitler wrote in his note to Soviet government about German declaration of war over USSR:
"Occupation and bolshivization by Soviet governmnet of the territory of Eastern Europe and Balkans, passed by government of Reich to Moscow as sphere of influence, COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS WITH MOSCOW'S AGREEMENTS".

And what could USSR be afraid of? Without territory of Poland, germany could not effectively fight Soviets

When Hitler thought about the war with Poland he didn't think about annexation of Poland. He couldn't imagine you'll fight like you did. He said to bosses of his party and ministers at August 28, 1939- "Danzig and resolution of question about corridor- it's minimal which allows Germany to keep its face. Maximum demands- in accordance with situation. It will be a very hard war, perhaps hopeless, but unitill I alive there will be no capitulation."
But already at Sept.10, Halder wrote in his diary- "the success of our forces is fabulous".
When Poles ask for chease fire at Sept.7 Halder wrote in the same diary- "Poles offer to start negotiations. We are ready for negotiations on the following conditions: Poland breaks with UK and France; the rest of Poland will remain; areas beoynd Narev, including Warsaw - to Poland; industrial area- to us; Krakow- to Poland; northern outskirt Beskidov- to us; areas of Western Ukrain- INDEPENDENT."
So, where did you get the idea that Hitler wanted to annex entire Poland to use it as bridgehead for invasion against USSR? When he or any of his generals or ministers said this?
And notice- "Western Ukrain- independednt" part. How the hell it could be, if that it was one of the German conditions for negotiations about peace with Poland, if you believe that in accordance with MR pact, Soviets should take this part of Poland for themselves? What is it- Halder didn't know about the pact or pact didn't contained a word about Soviet occupation of Western Ukraine?
As for how Hitler could fight vs. Soviets without territory of Poland-
1) through Baltic states
2) through Slovakia->Hungary->Romania, plus Polish army would figh on his side and some German armies would attack from territory of Poland.

If You don't know, Polish gouverment was supposed to be moved, and was moved first to Paris, later to London, and took part in later part of the war. Your words is silly SOviet propaganda, Serb.

Truth hurts, Heresson? Is it so hard to admit that your government was just a bunch of cowards?
Stalin didn't escape his capital when Germans were just several kilometers away. French governmnet didn't escape Paris when Germans entered it. Hitler didn't escaped Berlin when Soviets entered it in 1945. Nobody was such cowards as your government was. They escaped their capital after five days of war, when Germans were hundreds of kilometers away. You call it Soviet propaganda? I call it undeniable fact. Try to prove me wrong by proving that your president Mositzky didn't escape Warsaw at Sept.1 and your governmnet didn't escape Warsaw at Sept. 5.

Did they strike?

Sure they did. For France it was necessity to keep Polnd alive, because otherwise they had to face all German army alone.
In may 19, 1939 France and Poland signed secret military protocol, in August 25, 1939, UK gave guarnties to Poland. In case of German agression towards Poland, France had to bomb German military objects and lauch few military operations with limited goals against German west front. After 15th day of mobilization, France had to launch wide offence with major forces. UK and France declared mobilization at Sept.1, at Sept. 3 they declared war over Germany. At Sept 5 France launched this military operation with limited goals- their troops advanced in 25km wide area Shpihern-Hornbach to 7-8km depth into German territory.
But they were not in aware that their ally Poland already surrendered then. Yes, already, after 5 days of war.
At Sept. 3 the head of Polish army marshal Rydz-Smigly (what a fascinating name) gave order to his army (however this order was sent to troops at Sept. 5) to do not retreat to the east, but retreat to the south, to Romanian frontier.
He ordered full-scale retreat on third day of war! Furthermore, he ordered to retreat south instead of east. You know how it calls? It calls capitulation or incredible, astonishing, amazing incompetence. According to this order, instead of retreat to east (away from advancing Germans heading to west) to protect their capital, Polish troops should go south ACROSS advancing German forces. Instead of retreat to Warsaw where they could hold their defensive positions using natural obstacles- rivers Narev, Visla, San and fortresses: Vilno, Grodno, Osovetz, Lomja, Ostrolenka, Rojany, Pooltusk, Zagrdj, Modlin, Warsaw, Demblin build by Russians proir WW1 to fight Germans, they retreated south where there were no fortreses or natural obstacles. But there was border with Romania where they could surender to Romanians. The brilliant order, isn't it?
Let's see what von Manstein wrote about that- "Poles had no choice, but to remove their defensive positions beyond the Bobr-Narev-Visla-San, (and perhaps Dunaets) line. This line was a strong natural obstacle, besides former Russian fortifications, despite being obsolete, still could serve as good defensive points".
So, in Sept 5 French, in accordance with their agreement with Poles, start its local offensive operation with limited goals. At the same day the head of Polish army send order to his troops- retreat South. Basicaly, Poles surendered without a fight. They had to retreat west, beyond Narev-Visla-San rivers and hold Germans there, thus win some time, only two weeks for French to complete mobilization, but they didn't. They run south to surrender to allied Romanians. France entered this war because of Poland and Poland betrayed France. What the hell French should do when their mobilization was complete? Launch a full-scale offence like they planned? What for? Polish army didn't exist already, thanks to the briliant order of marshal Rydz-Smigly. And French just stayed in their fortresses.

It is disgusting Soviet propaganda, Serb. Be ashamed of it. First of all, the division of Poland was foreseen by Ribbentrop-Molotov pact already.

It wasn't. See above.

Secondly, that a gouverment leaves a territory of the state, it doesn't mean that the state ceases to exist.

How state can exist without its government?
USSR made several attempts to connect with your governmnet, but even your ambassador in Moscow, had no idea where the hell is it.

It planned to move to Swierdlowsk

Wow!!! You have a Polish name for Sverdlovsk? It's scares me. Let me guess, it's Polish city that should belong to Poland, right?
Anyhow, it planned to move to Kuibyshev, not Sverdlovsk. Planned, but didn't. Do you understand the difference between planned and moved? Do you understand the difference betweeen- to prepare evaquation of governmnet when Germans are already on outskirts of Moscow, a planned escape (which never happened actually) after a half of the year of war, AND escape from Warsaw on FIFTH DAY of war, when Germans were hundreds of kilometers away from it?

Propaganda, Serb. If the gouverment stayed, it'd have been killed by Germans.
It didn't "escape" just to save their lives.
They "escaped" to continue the fight in the west, which Poles did.

It seems, you Poles are followers of the "fight better controlled from as far distance as possible" doctrine. Your governmnet run away from the country with tails between their legs, on fifth day of war, just to continue the fight from abroad. The head of your army, left his army and run with tail between his legs to the Brest fortress where he has NO connection with his forces, just to continue the fight?
Yeah, righ, how much can you give me for that fancy bridge, I have here for sale?

Churchill is no moral authority.
And, yes, this agression was rational. Rational and planned, Serb.

Who recognized it as agression? Who said it was planned?

If You kill a person and no-one will dare to admit it, You still have killed a person.
You entered a territory of a foreign state, and started brutal occupation of it. It's an agression.

You can't kill already dead person. When Red Army entered Western Ukraine and Beyolrussia, Polish state was already dead.
As for occupation, you would better shut up Heresson. The occupation was what you did there since 1921. Absolute majority of population of those lands were Ukranians and Byelorussinas. You attacked Soviets, took these lands and exploited and opressed 12 millions of our brothers for 18 years. When Red Army entered Western Ukraine and Beylorussia, Soviet soldiers were meet with flowers. Those lands immidiently joined USSR after referendum.

Because their alliance with Poland was only directed against Germany, and anyway, they didn't want to risk conflict with USSR

Bullsh!t. They had plans to attack USSR for Finland. And Finland was not their ally.

Don't You forget that in 1939 Britain and France had to fight against Germany as well?

I din't. It's you who missed that I already said this in my previous post. They were in war with Germany, when USSR attacked Finland in 1939, but made all preparations to attack USSR. It was one of the reasons why Stalin signed peace treaty with Finland, despite the Mannergeim's line was broken and road to Helsinky was open. However he decided to sign peace instead of "bring them socialism", because threat of war vs. allies was real and it was the last thing he wanted in light of incoming war vs. Germany.
So my question remains- why UK and France didn't delare (and didn't make any preparations, any plans of such war) war over USSR for Soviet enterance in Western Ukraine and Byelorussia?
Why USSR was expeled from the league of nations as country agressor, later, becuase of Finland, but its earlier action in Poland wasn't condemned by the league of nations?

Poland was a new state, that had to fight for its independance also against Soviets.

What a bullsh!t. Perhaps you forgot that it was Soviets who gave you independence.

The treaty of Versailes didn't fix eastern boarders of Poland. Soviet gouverment was illegal, and Soviet state was not a successor of state of tzars. I think Lenin would've been offended by such insinuation.

1) Bullsh!t. Eastern borders of Poland laid within Kerzon's line. But you violated Versailes treaty not only in regards of eastern borders. You took parts of Germany, Czechoslovakia and Lithuania. Show me the treaty which allowed you to took the Lithuanian capitol- Vilnus. Do it.
2) Bullsh!t. Soviet government was a new government of Russia, recognized or not it doesn't matter. Who the hell gave you right to attack and occupy Ukraine? What Russian government?
3) Bullsh!t. Lenin's government replaced the governmnet of kerensky and it was it's successor. When Lenin took the power Russia didn't disappeared, it just gain new government. This government gave Poland independence, but it didn't gave right to Poland to attack Soviets and grab parts of Ukraine and Byelorussia.

Anyway, You annexed those lands from Poland. Poland ruled thse grounds before Russia did.

Holy sh!t, what else should belong to Poland? Kiev? Moscow? St. Petersburg? Vladivostok perhaps?
Western Ukraine belonged to Ukraine, western Byelorussia belonged to Beylorussia. Absolute majority of population of these lands were Ukranians and Byelorussians. Ukraine and Beylorussia were among four co-founders of USSR. Those lands belonged to USSR. Simple as that.

Sorry, but Putin recognises Katyñ as Soviet murder as well...

Can you prove it? I never heard this. Anyhow, he doesn't study history, he makes history. There is a big difference.
Gorbachev, just repeated Guebel's propaganda. He invented nothing new.
And the cheif of Hitler's propaganda ministery is the last man whom I trust.

Serb, You live in a world of ilusions.

Even if so, it's way better than to live in your world of lies and BS.

p.s. Have a nice day.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Geronimo

Serb, if you don't mind,I have a few questions to help me to clarify my understanding of your positions.

If Iran had invaded Iraq while the US and its coalition were invading Iraq and Iran managed to occupy and lay claim to the eastern half of Iran would you have supported such an annexation as legal since the government of Iraq fled to a little hole in the ground under a shed?

If Iraq had attacked Iran and grabbed parts of it and then later US attack Iraq and at the same time Iran move its forces to occupy lands which Iraq took from them earlier, I wouldn't mind.
Is it Iran's fault that Iraq attacked them and stole thier territories? Why it can't use the situation to return lands that righfully belong to Iran?
Heresson gave us few fascinating metaphors about robbing the house and killing the person.
I can give another metaphor:
Imagine two persons in 1921, person "P" and "S". Person S went complete crazy and start to fight with himself and at the same time gang of mofos attacked him to rob him and heal him from his madness permanently (more probably by killing him p). Person P usually lacks the balls to attack person S, but this time situation is extremely favorable for person P. So, person P attacks and able to defeat person S. As result of his victory person P tooks some of person S weapons.
Years passed. Person S defeated his madness and became a whole again. He also defeted gang of mofos who tried to kill him. Then in 1933 new person N was born, he immidiently declared that he is going to kill person S, because he don't like him and becuase he needs its house. Person S tried to create wide coalition against person N, but persons whom he offered to create alliance, such as persons U and person F were members of that gang who tried to kill him recently and they declined the offer. He offered alliance to person P, he declined it too. Then in 1939, person N attacked person P and killed him. Person S knowing that person N is going to kill him too, quickly explored the corpse of person P and took the weapons which person P stolen from person S in 1921. Person S thought like-"what the heck? it's my weapons after all, and I need it more than this dead mofo who stole it from me 18 years ago".

Did some of the horrible crimes attributed to Joseph Stalin actually occur?

Yes.

For instance did he really sell Ukranian grain overseas in such quantities as to create an artifical famine amongst the Ukranians?

He soldl grain to buy equipment needed to create heavy industry to prepare country for war vs. nazi. But it was only one of the reasons for famine.

What do you think of Poland wanting to enter a defense organization like Nato?

1) It's a big mistake for US. Poland is worse ally one could have. Russians know this for sure, now it's your turn to find this out.
2) It's a big mistake for Poland. In case of war we will need a buffer zone to protect core Russia from land invasion. So basicaly we'll just nuke our neighbour NATO members, turn their lands into radiactive wasteland. And Poland will be the first.

Do you think they had justification for wanting to join such an alliance?

They do not need any justification actually. They always serve to strongest master.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson
He said He prefers him to Gorbaczow or Jelcyn.

Oh, just look again what I said:
Gorbachev, Yeltsin, Yakovlev and their team of motherf*ckers ARE NOT my government.
And yes, I preffer to trust uncle Joe and to results of international investigation, than to cheif of Hitler's propaganda- Guebels.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Kramerman
russia =
*listens to sovi... errr... russian national anthem*

Hi, Kramerman
Where have you been so long?

[Heresson]

Ask yourselves.

I'm asking You

Pure bullsh!t. Antante recognized Poland's eastern frontiers to be up to Kerzon's line. West Ukraine and Beylorussia, you took later, were beyond the Kerzon's line.

It was not a part of the treaty.

Of course not, becuase USSR made it clear for you that he can sign military alliance with Lithuania in case of Polish agression.

LOL, USSR the grand saviour of Lithuania.
Why would Poland conquer Lithuania?
Anyway, You annexed it just a bit later

however its actions provoked WW2.

Yes, Poland provoked Hitler and Stalin! It was all Poland's fault!

In such sircumstances France and UK do not react to German annexion of Austria, despite they had to.

LOL. Yes, of course, Poland was responsible for Muenchen, Poland is responsible for anschluss, Poland is responsible for the start of ww2.
What's next? Are You really treating that seriously?

Well, well, well, so, when Poland on pair with Hitler participate in division of Czechoslovakia it's Ok, because Poles took only parts that Czechs took away from Poland earlier, but when Soviets do the same with Poland, because of absolutely the same reasons it is not Ok. It's f*cking agression of f*cking barbarians against an angel-like, innocent Poland.

No, it was a mistake. But ther is a difference. Poland took part of the disputed territory, consitituting less than 1% territory of Tchechoslovakia. Also, it did that without military activity, it did not replace the population, it did not mass - murder Tchechoslovakian officers etc., also, it did that without formal deal with Hitler, though indeed it profited from endangerement of Tchechoslovakia by him.
USSR entered by force, took half territory of Poland, including lands it never demanded, it started moving Polish population to Siberia, it murdered out large part of it including military officers, and it did that after a formal deal with Hitler.

1) Poland was hostile to Soviets. Soviets gave Poland independence when they took power

They didn't gave us anything. they accepted it.

and it is Poland who attacked Soviets in 1920, not the other way around.

If You hadn't planned a war through Poland to join revolution in Germany, and You hadn't let Polish spies get to know about it, Poland wouldn't have attacked.
If You find Chechen terrorists preparing an attack, would You leave them alone and wait for it or try to stop them?

The responsibility of hostality between our countries lays on Poland's shoulders.

And that's why Soviet propaganda depicted Pole as a greedy bug eating the harvest of Ukrainian and Byelorussian peasants?
And that's why Soviets were demanding "unification" of Byelorus and Ukraine?
And this is why USSR attacked Poland finally?
Poland couldn't make friends with USSR, as it would make Germans angry. Polish doctrine was equal distance to germans and Soviets

2) Of course I would let Chineese to go through Russian territory if we have a military alliance.

Well, Poland and SU didn't have an alliance

Transported armies are not 100% combat ready. You can't get out of the train and start to fight efficiently.

Stalin didn't want just right of passage before the war. He wanted Soviet armies to station in Poland, and exactly - in the regions He later annexed

Had he signed military alliance with UK, France and Poland vs. Germany he would never did something against the Poland and thus invlove USSR into war vs. Poland, Uk, France and Germany at once. Don't you understand this?

This thinking is right only when You assume He really wanted this alliance, and that France and Britain would fight against USSR if it did anything to Poland.

Wrong. Your foreign minister Beck said this.

You should be ashamed to believe such primitive propaganda
1) those "diaries" were surely published under USSR, and were serving Soviet interests
2) Do You think Polish ministry of foreign affairs would tell Soviet one: "yes, we'll join an alliance against You, just not now. And yes, we want to take part of Your territory"
Please, I've never seen such COMPLETELY thoughtless propaganda
Not to mention that Germany offered Poland alliance against Soviets and Germany as a loot, and Poland refused.

Danzig didn't belong to Poland at the first place.

Who said it did?
Poland had special rights in Free City of Gda?sk. It was kind of Polish fief, as one may say

Of course, defensive alliance against USSR.

Yes. USSR had territorial aspirations against both Poland and Romania. And it realised them later on

Your ally against USSR, not Germany.

And what? That means we'd grab its territory?
The boarder with Romania was very stable, only minor changes were made since XIV century. Poland had no interests and no will to change it.

IT WAS POLAND WHO ATTACKED SOVIETS IN 1920, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND. This is fact and it proves that it was you who wanted Soviet lands, not the other way around.

Not at all. Soviets were planning world revolution these days and wanted to roll through Poland to achieve that

It didn't. Yes, you get me right. IT DID NOT.

Sorry to disappoint You Serb, but it did.

"Occupation and bolshivization by Soviet governmnet of the territory of Eastern Europe and Balkans, passed by government of Reich to Moscow as sphere of influence, COMPLETELY CONTRADICTS WITH MOSCOW'S AGREEMENTS".

To have a reason to start the war?

"Danzig and resolution of question about corridor- it's minimal which allows Germany to keep its face. Maximum demands- in accordance with situation. It will be a very hard war, perhaps hopeless, but unitill I alive there will be no capitulation."

Hitler must've been mad to say something like this. I doubt this is authentic.

So, where did you get the idea that Hitler wanted to annex entire Poland to use it as bridgehead for invasion against USSR? When he or any of his generals or ministers said this?

1) I doubt your information
2) It was You who claimed this: You said USSR had to enter eastern Poland so that Germans wouldn've taken it

And notice- "Western Ukrain- independednt" part. How the hell it could be, if that it was one of the German conditions for negotiations about peace with Poland, if you believe that in accordance with MR pact, Soviets should take this part of Poland for themselves? What is it- Halder didn't know about the pact or pact didn't contained a word about Soviet occupation of Western Ukraine?

1) Your info may be wrong
2) Perhaps Hitler wanted to break the deal with You

1) through Baltic states
2) through Slovakia->Hungary->Romania, plus Polish army would figh on his side and some German armies would attack from territory of Poland.

Poland had no intentions in fighting Soviets.
War through Baltic states wouldn't be possible because of Polish Pomerania ("the Corridor" if You will)
War through Romania? Just because Romania is adjactent to USSR doesn't mean it would be a good start.
It'd mean more transportation problems in a land with weak infrastructure

Truth hurts, Heresson? Is it so hard to admit that your government was just a bunch of cowards?

Serb, Polish gouverment existed in London up to the fall of communism. And during the war it was fighting on Allied side; Poles took important part in the battle of England.

Stalin didn't escape his capital when Germans were just several kilometers away.

Soviet terrotory is huge, and Stalin always had where to back off too.

French governmnet didn't escape Paris when Germans entered it.

Yes, They surrendered and started collaborating.

Hitler didn't escaped Berlin when Soviets entered it in 1945.

Where could He escape too?

Sure they did. For France it was necessity to keep Polnd alive, because otherwise they had to face all German army alone.

The problem was that they did not strike. They waited few miles behind the boarder.

At Sept 5 France launched this military operation with limited goals- their troops advanced in 25km wide area Shpihern-Hornbach to 7-8km depth into German territory.

Wow, what a strike!

Rydz-Smigly (what a fascinating name) gave order to his army (however this order was sent to troops at Sept. 5) to do not retreat to the east, but retreat to the south, to Romanian frontier.

That's not true, deary

Let's see what von Manstein wrote about that- "Poles had no choice, but to remove their defensive positions beyond the Bobr-Narev-Visla-San, (and perhaps Dunaets) line. This line was a strong natural obstacle, besides former Russian fortifications, despite being obsolete, still could serve as good defensive points".

And that was exactly what was supposed to be done.
Though I would understand if it was otherwise - all major Polish industrial centers are west to that

How state can exist without its government?
USSR made several attempts to connect with your governmnet, but even your ambassador in Moscow, had no idea where the hell is it.

Serb, the gouverment existed; it existed up to the end of communism, as I mentioned.
And even if it did not, that would't be a good excuse anyway
There is no gouverment of Somalia. Can all its neighbours annect a part they like?

Wow!!! You have a Polish name for Sverdlovsk? It's scares me. Let me guess, it's Polish city that should belong to Poland, right?

Siberian cities have Polish names, simply because Russians and Soviets forced many Poles to live there

[qupte]
Planned, but didn't.
[/quote]

Because it didn't have to

AND escape from Warsaw on FIFTH DAY of war, when Germans were hundreds of kilometers away from it?

Actually, they were closing in, and Warsaw is on the western side of Vistula

Who recognized it as agression? Who said it was planned?

Nearly all historians of the world, just not Soviet ones and the ones in the lands dominated by them?

You can't kill already dead person. When Red Army entered Western Ukraine and Beyolrussia, Polish state was already dead.

Again and again: Polish gouverment still existed. Polish army still existed, and they existed later on on allied territory

As for occupation, you would better shut up Heresson. The occupation was what you did there since 1921. Absolute majority of population of those lands were Ukranians and Byelorussinas.

It depends on the region. Woly?, Polesie and Stanislawow wojewodztwa were indeed majorly not Polish. And what?

Soviet soldiers were meet with flowers. Those lands immidiently joined USSR after referendum.

SOVIET referendum. Do You know that they had a bad
habit of forging ones?
Also, there were much less than 12 mln Ukrainians and Byelorussians in Poland. And they are our brothers too.
Anyway, I'm sure Ukrainians under Great Famine
were very happy of their glorious Soviet masters

Bullsh!t. They had plans to attack USSR for Finland. And Finland was not their ally.

Did they attack?
Anyway, Soviets had German ally when it comes to Poland. Also, it is much easier to help Finland. It had natural boarders and long coast.

Why USSR was expeled from the league of nations as country agressor, later, becuase of Finland, but its earlier action in Poland wasn't condemned by the league of nations?

because it was a second agressions Soviets have made?
And because Polish gouverment wasn't officially in a war against Soviets?

What a bullsh!t. Perhaps you forgot that it was Soviets who gave you independence.

They stated Poland has a right for independance, that's far from giving it.

1) Bullsh!t. Eastern borders of Poland laid within Kerzon's line.

Which was not a part of Versailles treaty

You took parts of Germany

According to an allied judgement....

Czechoslovakia

because Czechoslovakia has taken it from us earlier. And no force was used, anyway
It was a mistake, perhaps Poland should just have forced Czechoslovakia to give them autonomy or ask Allies to settle this thing, or return to the idea of plebiscite on those grounds

and Lithuania.

It was not a part of Versailles treaty.
Lithuania was given Wilno/Vilnius by advancing Soviets.
Poles took it back. Yup, not in a very good style, but the same Lithuanians took it back not in a very nice style after Soviet invasion. And anyway, Poland agreed that it stays in Lithuania, on condition that Polish would have been one of the official languages on these grounds, inhavited majorly by Poles. Lithuania refused.

2) Bullsh!t. Soviet government was a new government of Russia, recognized or not it doesn't matter. Who the hell gave you right to attack and occupy Ukraine? What Russian government?

Ukrainian gouverment in fact, the one of Petlura, He allowed Poland to keep western Ukraine after it captured it, on condition that it helps Ukraine in its fight against Soviets.
Also, western Ukraine, but Wolyn, didn't belong to Russia before the war.
And Soviets are no new Russian gouverment. Also, they agreed on independance of Poland. Wolyn, Galicia, Byelorus etc were a part of Poland before it lost independance.

it was it's successor. When Lenin took the power Russia didn't disappeared,
it just gain new government. This government gave Poland independence, but it didn't gave right to Poland to attack Soviets and grab parts of Ukraine and Byelorussia.

It was an illegal gouverment that had no right to an inch of former Russian territory

Western Ukraine belonged to Ukraine, western Byelorussia belonged to Beylorussia.

Ukrainian cossac state never, except for a short period of Chmielnicki's uprising, got that far west.
Byelorus never existed.

Absolute majority of population of these lands were Ukranians and Byelorussians. Ukraine and Beylorussia were among four co-founders of USSR. Those lands belonged to USSR. Simple as that.

They weren't an absolute majority there.
Also, it's not only about ethnicity. Also, there are historical aspects.
Soviet Republics were not an emanation of these nations. Ukraine was included into USSR by force. Byelorus had no feeling of nationality, most of it.
USSR was not a national state, It had no right to demand ground inhabited by any population.

Can you prove it? I never heard this. Anyhow, he doesn't study history, he makes history. There is a big difference.
Gorbachev, just repeated Guebel's propaganda. He invented nothing new.

Why would He intend to lie in that matter?
There are talks with Russian gouverment in Katy? case all the time, also on Putin level. The difference is only that your gouverment doesn't want to treat it as genocide and punish people who were transporting the victims and stuff, while our gouverment wills it.

And the cheif of Hitler's propaganda ministery is the last man whom I trust.

If He told You the sky is blue, wouldn't You believe Him?

I hope You ever realise USSR, especially in Stalin times, was an agressive, totalitarian, ruthless state that murdered people without any doubt, attacked it neighbours and simply had no intention in teaching truth in its schools
Have a nice day as well

[Kramerman]

Originally posted by Serb

Hi, Kramerman
Where have you been so long?

break/vacation/no internet

[Serb]

Welcome back.
My flag looks better.

[pchang]

Seems like I unleashed a minor firestorm. Clearly there is wisdom in the saying "Fences make good neighbors".