Lets ban circumcision (male too)

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whaleboy
loinburger:

And a damn appropriate name!

People are insecure about penises. Anal sex, genital piercing, circumcisions, people get all insecure and petty about it cos that's where there own hang-ups lie. Its pathetic.

Ahh so if somebody tatooed a rose on your forehead while you were passed out you would be cool with that, since it wasn't your genitals? You have no problem with people having their way with the rest of your body?

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Ted Striker

So you think that if someone does something to some other part of my body i'd be just fine with that? Actually that does tick me off more, because if they had messed with somne other part of my body people would accept my complaints at face value but with genitals people attach all this weird freudian bull**** to it. It was the surgeon who singled out my genitals not me.

[Ted Striker]

I think that's the first time I've ever seen someone respond so passionatley to ""

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
I think that's the first time I've ever seen someone respond so passionatley to ""

so at least you read the post. I figured I could reason with you. I have no hope for the poster you were responding to.

[Whaleboy]

Ahh so if somebody tatooed a rose on your forehead while you were passed out you would be cool with that, since it wasn't your genitals? You have no problem with people having their way with the rest of your body?

As a baby, its the parents perogative if there are no lasting negative effects for the kid, which there aren't in this case.

I was circumsized because I am Jewish. If you are trying to explain to me why I should be angry about that, you are failing miserably. I am proud of being circumsized, I am proud of my people and history (if not some of their present actions) and I am grateful to my family for having my circumsized.

You don't like circumcision? Fine! Don't have it done. But don't go *****ing to everyone else about how its "messing with their bodies", and using the language of rape to describe such a gift.

You use the most woefully flawed analogies I can imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd strawman us to say that decapitating a kid was ok by our logic. Can you not see the distinction between circumcision and assault? One has lasting negative effects, and the kids are usually upset about it. Circumcision is not.

[Whaleboy]

so at least you read the post. I figured I could reason with you. I have no hope for the poster you were responding to.

I can assure you that loinburger has a lot more credibility here than you.

[Ted Striker]

I have to agree with the Whaleboy.

I am proud of it, and am glad my parents did it.

Forbidding drums in the house, now that's another story!!!

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


As a baby, its the parents perogative if there are no lasting negative effects for the kid, which there aren't in this case.

I was circumsized because I am Jewish. If you are trying to explain to me why I should be angry about that, you are failing miserably. I am proud of being circumsized, I am proud of my people and history (if not some of their present actions) and I am grateful to my family for having my circumsized.

You don't like circumcision? Fine! Don't have it done. But don't go *****ing to everyone else about how its "messing with their bodies", and using the language of rape to describe such a gift.

You use the most woefully flawed analogies I can imagine. I wouldn't be surprised if you'd strawman us to say that decapitating a kid was ok by our logic. Can you not see the distinction between circumcision and assault? One has lasting negative effects, and the kids are usually upset about it. Circumcision is not.

actually I don't have much disagreement with those who circumcise because thousands of years of tradition and family upbringing lead them to believe G-d has established an obligation for them to do this. So I don't suppose you and I disagree about your situation much. We may disagree about circumcisions done for more arrogant reasons however.

[Whaleboy]

actually I don't have much disagreement with those who circumcise because thousands of years of tradition and family upbringing lead them to believe G-d has established an obligation for them to do this. So I don't suppose you and I disagree about your situation much. We may disagree about circumcisions done for more arrogant reasons however.

They can do it for any reason they want in my opinion, and the only argument against is the minute cost of the procedure. If parents want it done for health reasons, cosmetic reasons, secular tradition, philosophy or religion, they're all good reasons . Frankly I wouldn't complain to see it done by default unless the parents specify otherwise.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


I can assure you that loinburger has a lot more credibility here than you.

I stated an opinion about someones crediblity? I don't question crediblity especially in certain groups. Crediblity doesn't interest me nearly as much as content in this case. Credibility is about honesty and deception which doesn't appear to be the critical factor in an ethical debate. However his post was strident to a degree that I didn't anticipate much chance of reasoning with him. I responded to Ted expecting perhaps to at least get my point across.

[Whaleboy]

I stated an opinion about someones crediblity? I don't question crediblity especially in certain groups. Crediblity doesn't interest me nearly as much as content in this case. Credibility is about honesty and deception which doesn't appear to be the critical factor in an ethical debate.

If you're trying to be prescriptive, honesty matters a hell of a lot. Descriptively, fine, but then you wouldn't be trying to tell others that what they are doing is wrong.

As for reasoning with him, it's simple. Deconstruct his argument, look at his points, identify assumptions to be explored, flawed reasoning and premises, and fallacies therein, and highlight them. All arguments have assumptions, many have flaws, it's not difficult. *Said in the most patronising voice possible*.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whaleboy



You don't like circumcision? Fine! Don't have it done. But don't go *****ing to everyone else about how its "messing with their bodies", and using the language of rape to describe such a gift.

I get angry because I can't make that choice. I get angry because people strawman me when I explain why I resent being denied that choice. the language of rape fits my experience a hell of a lot more closely than the language of gift. I am glad however that you are content with the hand that was dealt you. What was good for you is not automactially good or even acceptable for everybody else.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Whaleboy


If you're trying to be prescriptive, honesty matters a hell of a lot. Descriptively, fine, but then you wouldn't be trying to tell others that what they are doing is wrong.

As for reasoning with him, it's simple. Deconstruct his argument, look at his points, identify assumptions to be explored, flawed reasoning and premises, and fallacies therein, and highlight them. All arguments have assumptions, many have flaws, it's not difficult. *Said in the most patronising voice possible*.

I see you weren't shy about offering your own little unsolicited theory about why I'm angry about this earlier. Why don't you explain why you yourself now feel the need to direct the most patronising voice possible at me? You say you're content with your situation and I've even stated that I wouldn't oppose allowing things to work out the same for those in your situation in the future as they did for you. And yet you clearly are bitter at me for not accepting the lot that was dealt to me. can you explain this? (I don't have a pet theory of my own I like to hear people give their own account of themselves. Perhaps I feel that has more credibility

[Whaleboy]

the language of rape fits my experience a hell of a lot more closely than the language of gift.

Awww diddums, poor Geronimo gets friction burns

I am glad however that you are content with the hand that was dealt you. What was good for you is not automactially good or even acceptable for everybody else.

Nothing I have said advocates the denial of that choice and the forceful imposition of circumcision. To have it done by default except where the parents state otherwise still leaves the choice. I want that choice open and circumcision to be recommended. As for your last sentence, I find that ironic after I told you the difference between descriptive and prescriptive.

[Asher]

Why would anybody be proud of having skin removed from your manhood?

It makes you less of a man, by definition.