rape: a matter of opinion

[General Ludd]

Originally posted by Drogue

No, rape is having sex with someone against their will. If she didn't tell him her will, how was he to know?

If he doesn't know if she wants to have sex, he shouldn't be having sex with her.


Is having sex with an unconscious person not rape, because they don't know and can't say wether theyw ant it or not?

What about a blind and deaf man raping women?



Rape is having sex without the other person wanting it.

[Patroklos]

Ludd, try and understand the impossibility of what your saying.

By your logic, what if a woman is just looking for money and has sex with the explicit purpose of claiming rape (just a hypothetical)? By your rules of evidence there is no way to stop that.

I understand people feeling for rape victims, and I have a very close freind who was (violence, no contest). But despite the horrible nature of these crimes we give the defendent powers that are not even available for murder cases.

Despite whatever trappings you want to add about emotions the fact is the only thing most rappists are convicted with is unsubstatiated biased point of view testimony. Period. And you guys ***** about terrorist tribunals...

And then there is that stupid rule that a woman can decide at any time that it was unconsencual. Years after the fact is okay. How can a guy defend against that? It is anti-democratic, against every other judicial precident, and a very slippery slope.

[Ned]

I think his statement illustrates that men and women, or better, any two people, can view the consent issue differently. A rape case critically depends, it appears, not on the consent or lack of consent of the "victim," but on whether he or she effectively communicated that lack of consent to the other.

IMHO, the consent issue in this case was in doubt from the beginning. The evidence was not convincing one way or the other. But certainly, it did not rise to the level required for a conviction.

The only conclusion one should draw is that the prosecution never should have been brought in the first place.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by General Ludd


If he doesn't know if she wants to have sex, he shouldn't be having sex with her.


Is having sex with an unconscious person not rape, because they don't know and can't say wether theyw ant it or not?

What about a blind and deaf man raping women?



Rape is having sex without the other person wanting it.

How do you ever "know" that the other person wants to have sex? The other night I had sex with my wife when I would have rather not (nagging back injury). I didn't realy want to, but I complied.

Was I raped?

[Patroklos]

Kobe's statement, and I am not convinced on guilt one way of the other, is basiclly him agnolaging the diffictulty of the matter.

Kobe had sex with a consenting female, who after the fact "decided" it was rape. If that happened to me, even though I did nothing wrong and couldn't help how she later interepreted an event that at the time she had no problem with, I would still feel like ****. He is stating the obvious, that they now have a differnence of opinion.

But the fact remains that so far, unless she modifies the story we know, there was no violence or intimidation (him being famous is not intimidation, he can't help that) and she has yet to say she did anything to convey she did not want sex, ie verbally of physically.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Ned
I think his statement illustrates that men and women, or better, any two people, can view the consent issue differently. A rape case critically depends, it appears, not on the consent or lack of consent of the "victim," but on whether he or she effectively communicated that lack of consent to the other.

In the realm of physical intimacy, requiring a positive affirmation of consent gets ludicrous. If I get consent to touch her left breast, do I need to get another consent to touch the right. If she consented to manual stimulation of the genitals, do I ned another consent to resume there after pausing to stroke her hair.

A party ALWAYS has the right to deny or revoke consent at anytime. I don't care if its after 10 minutes of intercourse and someone suddenly yells STOP. No means NO. Period. I just feel its reasonable to expect someone to have to actually say no if the other circumstances would lead someone to reasonably believe that the other participant was willing.

[DanielXY]

Come on who truly asks woman for sex? You make out and just let it go...
If she doesnt say she dont want or something she is in agreement. Of course you can judge yourself from her reactions if she happylie agrees or not...

But you cant call it rape just because she remains passive. Some woman always remain passive cose they are not expirienced yet, or they are just lazy whatever...
that doesnt necessarily mean they dont enjoy...

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Patroklos
By your logic, what if a woman is just looking for money and has sex with the explicit purpose of claiming rape (just a hypothetical)? By your rules of evidence there is no way to stop that.

Sure there is. He can ask permission. Yes is an affirmative defence.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Flubber
In the realm of physical intimacy, requiring a positive affirmation of consent gets ludicrous.

I don't know why. I always asked before my long term relationship with the Bgrrl, and she has enough force of personality to tell me to shove off (not that she would since she has a much stronger drive than I do).

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by DanielXY
Come on who truly asks woman for sex?

I do. I always have. Sometimes I've even declined when she said yes but her body language said no. I'm all about respecting the other person. Sex is fun, but it's not so much fun that I'm willing to ruin another prson's life for it.

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I don't know why. I always asked before my long term relationship with the Bgrrl, and she has enough force of personality to tell me to shove off (not that she would since she has a much stronger drive than I do).

This reads like you ceased to always ask when you got into a long-time relationship.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
This reads like you ceased to always ask when you got into a long-time relationship.

Assent is always sought, not always verbally though. With me, however, BG is of the opinion of taking it when she can get it.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Sex is fun, but it's not so much fun that I'm willing to ruin another prson's life for it.

Huh-- why would it ruin someone's life to have to make the effort to say "no" or "not tonight".

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Flubber
Huh-- why would it ruin someone's life to have to make the effort to say "no" or "not tonight".

Why would it ruin your fun to explicitely ask for your partner's opinion on having sex?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Assent is always sought, not always verbally though. With me, however, BG is of the opinion of taking it when she can get it.

So non-verbal assent-- I'm assuming tghis is by her umm ACTIONS. and those actions would be moving in ways to facilitate rather than impede matters RIGHT??