Communists, Don't Fear the Reaper....:D

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
PS to Che: Do we live in an Athenian Democracy, or do you suppose that perhaps there's a reason it died out in WampumWayBack BC? But yes, I agree with you in principle.

The point was that democracy can be just as tyrranical as the rule of a despot. You are placing form above essence. Hell, it hasn't even been the last hundred years that the idea of popular rule has become accepted, even in the United States. Mob rule has been decried since the beginning of the American experiment, frequently againt people like me (until the Soviets decided to prove everyone wrong by going 180 degrees and becoming a dictatorship based on a cult of personality).

Ceterus parabus, we agree that democracy is the superior form of government, and not just because trade is doubled and corruption lowered . We have as an ideal that humans have the right to particpate in their own government. Many on right and left, however, have been all to willing to express the caveat, "unless my side loses." Lots of people who decry the lack of democracy in Communist dictatorships at the same time openly wish for a coup d'etat against elected leftists like Chavez, or supported war against the elected Sandanistas. As for the left, I don't think I need to instruct you on our democratic failings.

So what does that mean for justice? What is just is a value judgement. Like morals, ethics, race, rights, culture, etc., it doesn't have an existence seperate from humans and thus cannot be defined objectively, despite Plato's attempts to do so in The Republic. Justice is subjective and relative. The best we can do is create a system of rules upon which the majority can agree is just, and that can be done by imposing it from above via a dictator or by working it out amongs ourselves democratically.

[Velociryx]

Liked the Civ reference, too.

Good to see you here, Che.

I agree with nearly everything in your last post, save for (of course) the last bit re: dictatorship, because for the life of me, I CANNOT get my brain to accept that a dictator knows better than a representative of my choosing what is best for me, and that's really what it comes down to.

-=Vel=-

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Kidicious

So if we democratically create a law that requires all citizens to share equally in the work load and recieve equal pay for it, do you still think that’s an injustice in your opinion?

I would abide by the law while fighting against it. I believe in democracy more than I do the free market. Democratically imposed laws can still be unjust.

If the law remained I would perhaps leave that society and join one where my skills were more valued. Although it might be worth sticking around to see the fun of the implementation. When the strapping young factory worker finds out that he no longer gets extra pay for producing 60 units while everyone else produces 40 . .. . or when everyone sees the lazy ass bumped up to their pay scale.


Exactly how many brain surgeries are equal to 8 hours of ditch digging anyway?

Oh and in demand services like the Intensive Care Unit, are you going to keep it constantly staffed at maximum levels (very inefficient since it can be double what isusually needed) or are you going to staff it at regular levels and if so, what do you do when more people are needed ( note these are specialized skills)? having someone work an extra shift leaves you with 2 apparent choices

1. pay someone to work "extra"
2. don't pay them

Either would be a problem for you since option one gives someone extra stuff while 2 would demand extra work .

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Velociryx
LC

Where did I get all emotional in my reply to you?

Don't tell me that passages such as this one are not intended to provoke emotional hostility towards autocrats:

Also note that in the democratic system, the review system (courts, trials by a jury of your peers, etc), takes pains to make SURE they are, in fact guilty. Contrast this to being awakened in the middle of the night by the People’s Anti-Theft Division, Squad 3645-DD, and tossed in His Excellency’s jail for God-knows-how long.

your above argument certainly seems to stand in open contradiction to your statement that justice cannot be dictated; you're fine with the democracy dictating to the thieves that theft is wrong.

If you have a voice in the government that establishes the rules you live under, then you cannot rightly say that you are being dictated to.....at least....not in any way that I can see from here. Again, do you have something in mind?

Of course I can say I'm being dictated to if others, in this case a democratic majority, are laying down rules I have to follow even if I do not agree with them. That's what being dictated to means.

As to opposition of autocracy....I oppose it because rule by fiat does not...DOES NOT constitute a just society.

Point. You can adjust the definiton of justice too, of course. I'd suggest this is not the usual sort of justice people normally think of; equal treatment for all, appropriate rewards and punishments for achievements and transgressions, and the like.

Excuse me, but what the hell does that have to do with anything?

It has a whole lot to do with having to give up increasing amounts of freedom for precious little gain.

Which is not an issue I've addressed in this thread, nor, as far as I can recall, in any thread on 'Poly in the last several weeks.

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Flubber....if it's a global implementation, as desired, then they would have no place to deport you to...

-=Vel=-

I know that the grand plan but the question is what would I do if my nation passed such laws-- My answer is I would fight within the system and then if lost, I would leave, perhaps to fight the same battle elsewhere

[Flubber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
So what does that mean for justice? What is just is a value judgement. Like morals, ethics, race, rights, culture, etc., it doesn't have an existence seperate from humans and thus cannot be defined objectively, despite Plato's attempts to do so in The Republic. Justice is subjective and relative. The best we can do is create a system of rules upon which the majority can agree is just, and that can be done by imposing it from above via a dictator or by working it out amongs ourselves democratically.

I agreed with you pretty much all the way . . . so close.

To me a set of rules imposed from above could only be acceptable if one of them was that "rules are not imposed from above". Democracy is an end as well as a means.

If the tyrant wanted to impose a set of rules that included the populace to change them, fine, but you no longer have a tyrant.

[Velociryx]

:: Shrug:: Sorry LC....but nope. That one was entirely unintentional. (the "emotional reference," that is) - if you took it that way...if it came OUT that way, it was not by design.

And I disagree...any system which allows you a fair say prior to rendering its decision is not dictatorial in its nature, *especially* if said decision is not set in stone, but subject to continual review, testing, and change by you and your constituants at some later time. You may not like, enjoy, or agree with the end result if "your side loses," but you cannot rightly say that you are being dictated to in the sense of the "rule by fiat" dictation. Not even in the same ballpark.

As to the last...what can I say but that since you seemed interested to know more about my views, I thought that might interest you as well.

If that was a mistaken assumption...oops.

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Flubber...if that happens....you got room for one more?

-=Vel=-

[Flubber]

Vel

that was not emotional-- dictators often toss people in jail or kill them on whims-- I don't know why a reference to that fact should be offensive to anyone in discussing why you prefer democracy

[Kidlicious]

Posted by Vel
Of course, that's not at all what you've been advocating.

OMG, If I tell you to prove it you are just going to misrepresent me again. Do you think I
want to single handedly fight the revolution and impose my totalitarian regime on every
living person on the planet?

(Dreaming of Counter-Revolution)

This makes a lot of sense. It wouldn’t be any of that emotional talk would it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
for the life of me, I CANNOT get my brain to accept that a dictator knows better than a representative of my choosing what is best for me, and that's really what it comes down to.

-=Vel=-

Do you not do things that really piss you off sometimes, things that in retrospect you say to yourself, I'm an idiot? Is it possible that you could be tricked into voting for someone who turns out not to have your best interests at heart (like that never happens in America).

Is it possible that there might be times when democracy might not be the best idea, say, Iraq following the overthrow of Hussein (in spite of the U.S. ruling in a pretty boneheaded way at first)?

[Flubber]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Flubber...if that happens....you got room for one more?

-=Vel=-

Sure -- you can be responsible for bringing researching agriculture possibilities in South Pacific islands. I'll look into fishing possibilities

About once a year we will flag down a passing cruise ship and try to log into poly.

[Velociryx]

PS to LC - Oh, and by the way...are you telling me that the scenario I outlined in my "emotional response" regarding getting tossed into jail for an unspecified amount of time and/or awakened in the dead of night is an unheard of methodology in Autocratic societies?

Power corrupts, and left unchecked, such events can, have, and continue to occur with a sickening frequency in EXACTLY those types of societies. That wasn't some fanciful stretch of the imagination (and another big reason for standing in opposition to the PatActs, btw...because it gives OUR law enforcement too much similarity...far too much leeway).

-=Vel=-

[Last Conformist]

The process might be different, but the end result is the same; a rule that I disagree with is formulated, and I must obey it (or face more-or-less unpleasant sanctions). I cannot see how it's not the same thing.

As for the PATRIOT act, no, I'm not particularly interested in your views on it. But my reaction to its being brought up here was provoked by me not understanding what it has to with what we're discussing here - I still don't. For the moment, I can only suggest you open a new thread if you want to discuss it.

[Velociryx]

Thanks for that check, Flubber...I didn't think so either, but was good to hear, since I've been accused of that quite a bit here lately...

And I'll take you up on the South Pacific Expedition! WhoooHoooo! Vel's Sweet Tea! (I see a marketing opportunity here)

Che - Yep...I've admitted already that democracies can make mistakes, but you know something? I'll take an imperfect democracy ANY DAY over an 'as-close-to-perfect-as-humanly-possible Dictatorship. Any day (cos lets face it, he'll die one day, and his kid might be a total f*ckup). And case in point...Dubya. UGH (I didn't vote for either of them, but still!)

Kid, nope....wouldn't misrepresent you. You're talking about the revolution....it's even in your profile. My counter-revolution wasn't emotional either....just a counterpoint to you...

-=Vel=-