Communists, Don't Fear the Reaper....:D

[Velociryx]

Yep...that's just what you said. "with a terrible and swift final blow." at that.

Let's see now....crush the counter-revolutionaries. I'm assuming that does not mean "with a big friendly bearhug?"

I mean, if it does, by all means, jump on in and tell me that.

When I read phrases like

"crush the counter revolution"

and

"swift and final blow"

that sorta makes me think....death?

When you read those phrases...what images do they evoke for you?

And if you did not mean death by them....can you give me a hint as to what you DID mean?

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Oh...and I'm guessin' that means that you could find no evidence of me wanting to execute you? So instead of fessing up to that being a fiction, you just shifted gears to divert attention away?

Just an example of one of your tactics here...

-=Vel=-

[Berzerker]

Kid - if I'm being "exploited" when I agree to work for my neighbor at $10/hour, what is it when I'm forced to work for you and your ideology?

Justice or slavery?

[Velociryx]

Berz...that would be non-totalitarian, kidilicious democratic, down home liberty, justice, and equality for all, you poor misguided sod.



-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

just as an aside, and becuase I'm feeling down-home rednecky today....thinking about myself living in Kid's Utopia, I see the mental image of Monty Python's "Holy Grail" - specifically the part where Lancelot stumbles into the thicket of horney women and the rest of the knights come drag him away as he struggles against them saying "but I like the danger! Show me the danger! No, really!"

That'd be me, offering to mow the neighbor's lawn for extra cash to "get ahead" of my neighbors.

"but I LIKE the exploitation! Show me the exploitation! Please!"



-=Vel=-

[Flubber]

Kid

I don't know anything at all about you, true, and your personal travails are irrelevant really as I only attack your arguments. But I confess to being quite confused as to what your arguments exactly are anymore but I can say this

1.The current system is more productive than anything you propose-- I didn't mention my personal experience for sympathy-- I mentioned it to show that if you don't reward working harder and longer, extra training, more educuation or innovation, then on average you will get less of these things-- Business psych, the corporate experience and the experiences of nation states back this up.

2. Your system is less free than the current one. A person in canada is constrained only by their own abilities. There is nothing that prevents any one of us from garnering wealth. I can work as much as little as I want as long as I meet my own basic needs and I can choose which area I want to work in with reasonably good knowldge of the pay

Your system

a) you will mandate how much money I make
b) you will mandate how much I can work-- I can't work more or less
c) you may even make me take a turn at a less desirable job



tell me again WHY you want to do all this ??

[Berzerker]

tell me again WHY you want to do all this ??

Because it's fair to let Kid run your life.

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Just out of curiosity, have you read them, Ag?

-=Vel=-

The teaser was enough.

Anyway, why do you have to wreck any possibility of a worthwhile debate on this topic by attacking straw men and ruling out obvious objections by fiat?

Not everyone is a Stalinist (except maybe MtG), not everyone thinks that a communist society could be instituted right now, and not everyone thinks that it is necessary for a communist government to micromanage its citizens' lives any more than a welfare state capitalist government.

Communism is a historicist doctrine. What you seem to be arguing against is some sort of utopian socialism.

And drop the ridiculous "the USSR broke up" arguments. Any communist worth his salt would tell you that the reason it failed is basically the same reason instituting democracy in mediaeval England would have failed.

[Agathon]

There is nothing that prevents any one of us from garnering wealth.

Other people?

[Velociryx]

Ag, I'm debating what is before me, and to my knowledge, that's pretty standard form as debates go.

Kid calls himself a Communist. None of you other communists have taken any particular steps to distance yourself from him, or to refute his claim.

Kid is setting the parameters of the current debate by outling his system, and we are asking to take a closer look under the hood OF that system. When we try to nail down the particulars of what makes the system tick, it changes to suit the moment. We are not destroying any chance for meaningful discussion. We are simply trying to understand exactly WHAT you mean to implement. Now...in the future...whenever. That is irrelevant to the discussion, ultimately. I'm not asking when, I am asking WHAT. To date, I haven't gotten a clear answer.

If you'd like to change the parameters of the debate, it is as simple as putting some other proposed system on the table.

That you have not done so tells me that you have either nothing to propose, or no interest in debating the merits of "your brand" of the Big Red Machine. That's not too much of a leap, is it?

As to previous renditions of the grand experiment, I'm afraid that comes with the territory, because I assure you I am not alone in wanting to know why we should be subjected to a global version of the same basic doctrine that has failed so spectacularly on the world stage, and I'm afraid it falls to you modern day practitoners to answer those questions, since your founding fathers had an odd habit of killing each other off in droves.

What we'd like are some explanations about what you plan to do differently, and what mechanisms will be in place to prevent history from repeating itself.

Is that too much to ask, or will you answer me in Kid fashion and tell me to let the enlightened Party Bosses worry about it....don't think, don't question, just accept their wisdom as it comes?

If you don't HAVE those answers, then you're absolutely right. The revolution is a long ways off, because it seems to me that *somebody* had better have half a clue before implementation begins, ya know?

Hand in hand with that, if you don't have THOSE answers, what DO you know? What can you tell me about the system and its implementation?

If you can't tell me much about that either, then there's really not a lot to discuss, and not much in the way of "meaningful discussion" to wreck, true?

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Other people prevent me and Flubber from making money?

Really?

When does this occur? I'm curious to hear more about what you mean. The two-word answer did not provide sufficient detail to get a clear picture of what you mean.

I can tell you this tho, it has not been my experience that anybody's been standing over my shoulder preventing me from going out and getting a second job, putting caps on how much I can earn, or parameters on how much I can negotiate for.

There IS a proposal on the table that'd do all those things, but thankfully, that is not the system we are operating under at present.

Can you provide additional details?

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

oh...and I observe that you have not made your comments known on the teaser thread.

If you read it and didn't like it, then by all means, post your comments. I am not afraid.

-=Vel=-

[Guynemer]

Originally posted by JohnT
This thread needs more cowbell.

[Agathon]

Ag, I'm debating what is before me, and to my knowledge, that's pretty standard form as debates go.

Not really. There's a thing called the Principle of Charity, which seems to have escaped you entirely.

As I said, not all communists are the same. I don't know what Kids' version is, but you seem to think they are all the same.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Agathon


Not really. There's a thing called the Principle of Charity, which seems to have escaped you entirely.

As I said, not all communists are the same. I don't know what Kids' version is, but you seem to think they are all the same.

Seems to me he's given up his preconceived notions and simply argued Kid's points.

Give up your preconceived notion that all of us are going to mention the USSR, then talk about "the Principle of Charity"



ACK!