Communists, Don't Fear the Reaper....:D

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx

A perfect example would be this:

You tell Flubber that it's not fair if he "gets ahead" (meaning that you're very concerned about maintaining a classless society where everybody starts, and remains equal...because that's one of your stated beliefs...equality is of utmost importance to you).

But when confronted with a scenario USING YOUR OWN SYSTEM where class differences begin to form, rather than fix the system you designed, you simply change the argument. Now, it's no longer a concern that Flubber's "getting ahead," cos hey....equal work for equal pay man, and you're done.

But the two positions contradict each other.

Get it?

-=Vel=-

Taking care of your things and making good purchases is not getting ahead. Elevating yourself into the ruling class in a capitalist system is. If you want to understand what I'm saying you are going to have to try to understand were I'm coming from and give me a little credit. You're understanding what I'm saying only the way you want to, because you want to create some Stalin figure to argue with. If you really want to debate me, your going to have to try harder to understand me.

[Kidlicious]

You know Vel, it would help a lot if you read some of my posts on other subjects. If you did you would know me better, and there's no way you would insist on this garbage about me.

[Tuberski]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Nope Kid...I sure don't. Do you?

And that IS an important question, because EVEN WITH absolute equality of income, you will not be able to avoid a society of "haves" and "have nots" without periodic redistribution/confiscation of accumulated material wealth.

And what happens when Flubber's family really starts to outshine his neighbors, pulling ahead of them in every measurable way? Better cars, more money, nicer home...EXPANSION to the home....

When the neighborhood gets into an uproar about the uppity, high-brow family down the lane there....what are the party bosses gonna do?

Don't think it won't happen, either, cos we've demonstrated how it can and will.

So what's the response?

Or would you like to try another artful dodge?

-=Vel=-

They will be mind-stapled, in fact all will be mind-stapled, since that's the only way that there will be a level playing field.

Human is a selfish animal, they don't work for the community and never will.

The only way that could happen is if God came down and took this selfishness away. Which according to religeous teachings I received will happen.

Basically, communism will only work with a higher power in authority, God, if you will.

Most Communists are atheists from what I've seen.

So the only thing that can make there beliefs come true, is something they don't believe in.

Yep, Communism makes sense.

ACK!

[Velociryx]

Elitism does not require a capitalist system.

Besides that, by your own logic, it is EVERY BIT as unfair for someone to gain an advantage because of superior money management skills as it is to gain an advantage cos daddy had money.

Further, even with the system you propose, there WILL BE families who have money. Even if you reset everybody to the exact same level on day one of your glorious revolution, over the course of time, the cream will rise to the top.

When that happens, you'll have your Elitism back.

The only way to prevent it is to periodically round up all personal property and re-distribute it so nobody gains that elite status.

Keep in mind that a lot of the wealthy families in this country built their wealth up in the span of less than a hundred years (and sometimes, dramatically less). There's a relatively small portion of truly "old money" in this country (which makes sense, given that we've only had a two hundred odd year history, as compared with some nations with a thousand or more years under their belts), so this is not going to be a problem that won't manifest itself for centuries to come, even if we reset everything tomorrow. You'll start having to deal with it in twenty years, tops. And perhaps even less time than that.

First thing then, is to decide exactly what it is you're arguing for. What do you truly want to change? Until you make up your mind on that, the debate can't really move forward, because every time you change your mind, we have to go back to the beginning and start all over (and as a side note: if you are tiring of the repititious nature OF this debate, there's your reason FOR all the repititon).

Further, under your system "taking care of things and making good purchases" is the first step toward getting ahead. You may have limited my options to do so, but when I start leveraging what options I have, you can bet your arse you'll notice the difference.

When that happens, I'll suddenly become one of those "Elitists" you go on about all the time, and therefore, a very dangerous man in your society.

But of course admitting to that, and then telling me how you'll deal with me would mean demonstrating a decidedly un-democratic (and perhaps a bit uncomfortable) side of your Utopia that you'd rather not draw attention to.

So....let's just do what we can to divert attention from that point by changing the subject, right?

I can read you, Kid.

You're not fooling me.

Just so you know.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

All I have to do is read the last part of your post to see that you continue to misrepresent me, so I don't have to read the rest.

[Kidlicious]

How would you like it if I called you a Fascist and then argued against that character that I have created? Would you debate me?

[Velociryx]

That's right....whatever you do, don't address the issues.

Much easier to practice those artful dodges...

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Kid, you may call me whatever you like.

YOU are setting the parameters of this debate. It's your system.

I'm simply asking questions ABOUT the system you proposed.

Most of which have gone unanswered.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
That's right....whatever you do, don't address the issues.

Much easier to practice those artful dodges...

-=Vel=-

Oh yeah, the issue of me wanting to control every aspect of your life. Whatevre.

[Velociryx]

Just too uncomfortable to answer the questions.

I understand.

And in that case, and in the absence of any questions for me (aside from the dog-kicking one, which I already answered)....I guess we're done?

Debate all wrapped up?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Kid, you may call me whatever you like.

Yeah?! Why do you want to execute me for being a communist then?

[Velociryx]

Execute you?

Wherever did you get that from?

If you will recall, I'm not the one raving about the "swift and final blow" that will wash away all the counter-revolutionaries....that would be you, my friend.

The worst I've said of you is that you are misinformed and undecided. Those things hardly make me an executioner.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Execute you?

Wherever did you get that from?

If you will recall, I'm not the one raving about the "swift and final blow" that will wash away all the counter-revolutionaries....that would be you, my friend.

The worst I've said of you is that you are misinformed and undecided. Those things hardly make me an executioner.

-=Vel=-

I don't believe you. Now answer the question. Why do you want to execute me?

[Velociryx]

I have not expressed a desire to execute you. If you feel that I have, please quote me to demonstrate where.

However, you have expressed a desire to execute me (unless you wish to argue that the "swift and final blow" is not death, but subjecting me to three hundred hours of the Teletubbies).

Next question?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
However, you have expressed a desire to execute me (unless you wish to argue that the "swift and final blow" is not death, but subjecting me to three hundred hours of the Teletubbies).

I said we would crush your counter-revolution. Just one example here of your tactics.