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A revolution is a fundamental change in the socio-economic system.
1. A revolution need not be violent.
2. A revolution need not involve suppressing dissent.
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
And when Reds talk about their revolutionary rise to power....it NEVER evokes images of violence, does it?
Nope. Not a once.
Throw in phrases like swift and final blow, or threats of re-education camps and strongarm tactics....what does it add up to?
Warm fuzzies?
-=Vel=-
The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.
@Spiff: Are you seriously saying it would be less bad if Kid killed people we don't know in order to implement his utopia than if he killed Vel and Flub?
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
And when Reds talk about their revolutionary rise to power....it NEVER evokes images of violence, does it?
Nope. Not a once.
See, this is the problem. You're creating some sort of Stalinist strawman, and trying to pideonhole Kid into it.
Throw in phrases like swift and final blow
What's wrong with that phrase?
, or threats of re-education camps and strongarm tactics....what does it add up to?
Warm fuzzies?
Can you truly find a comment about re-education camps, etc. in a serious context?
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Sure, if I felt like slogging through ten thousand threads in the busted-search-feature archives. IF they're even still IN the archive.
As to your other comments.
Let's see....we got a guy dreaming of the revoltuion, mentioning swift and final blows (banter context or not, that was still the phrase that sprang to mind when asked about dealing with dissent...not jail time, not fines....swift and final blows...what does that phrase suggest to you? A big hug and a pat on the butt?).
If there ARE to be counter-revolutionaries, then that means, almost by default a "revolutionary rise to power" which IS a violent rise.
Not might be...IS
Or, do you have a historic example of a non-violent revolutionary rise to power?
-=Vel=-
The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.
Why can't you be a non-conformist just like everybody else?
It's no good (from an evolutionary point of view) to have the physique of Tarzan if you have the sex drive of a philosopher. -- Michael Ruse
The Nedaverse I can accept, but not the Berzaverse. There can only be so many alternate realities. -- Elok
Sure, if I felt like slogging through ten thousand threads in the busted-search-feature archives. IF they're even still IN the archive.
If you're going to accuse him of eating babies, the least you could do is to back up your statements.
Let's see....we got a guy dreaming of the revoltuion, mentioning swift and final blows (banter context or not, that was still the phrase that sprang to mind when asked about dealing with dissent...not jail time, not fines....swift and final blows...what does that phrase suggest to you? A big hug and a pat on the butt?).
It suggests a quick victory. You're reading a bunch of nonsense into it.
If there ARE to be counter-revolutionaries, then that means, almost by default a "revolutionary rise to power" which IS a violent rise.
Not might be...IS
Or, do you have a historic example of a non-violent revolutionary rise to power?
Are you telling me that the Eastern European revolutions that ended communism were associated with slaughtering dissidents?
Anyways, why don't you genuinely ask him what he means by revolution instead of reading a bunch of Stalinist nonsense into the term?
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Just read about the Velvet Revolution. Yep. That qualifies. Good show, and I stand corrected.
It IS possible, at least in the context of stepping *away from* a communist regieme, which is the opposite direction we're headed in, but still a case in point.
And Ramo....I'm not accusing anyone of eating babies....simply stating that his Utopia is openly hostile toward the kind of person I represent. The "Capitalist-Pig-Dog". The exploiter of the downtrodden of the world. The "Elitist."
Such people are menaces TO the new world order proposed. Further, there is no ROOM in the New Utopia for people who fit that mold, and SINCE there is no room, there's really only two solutions.
Forced "re-education" or death.
Not the case when moving away from the communistic dictatorships of eastern europe and to a more open society, by the way....the more open society embraces those folks (even if somewhat grudgingly).
But were Kid's vision to spring to full fruition tomorrow, we Capitalists would rapidly try to reinvent the old (and now banned) system, and we would be dealt with.
Swiftly and with finality.
That does not suggest a slap on the wrist to me.
Does it to you?
-=Vel=-
The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.
I remember that the last time I was arguing about capitalism with you, you were trying to pidgeon-hole me into positions that I didn't hold (that of statism).
You're doing the same thing to Kid right now. That isn't fair. And that isn't conducive to honest debate.
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
For the record tho, I'm attacking Kid's proposal, yes.
But I'm not trying to pidgeon-hole him.
I don't care what his position is.
It's not gonna happen anyway (relates back to the idle "what if" situations).
What I care about is finding out what the New Utopia means for me and folks like me who are forced to live under it.
Right now, it's not lookin so hot...
-=Vel=-
The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.
Be a sport, Ramo....tell me what I said we would crush your counter-revolution with a swift and final blow makes you think when you hear the phrase?
Does it make you think you're about to get a big hug from the Party Bosses and a pat on the back?
Does it make you think you're gonna get a complimentary beach house and a Jag to win your heart and mind?
Or does it make you think something....a bit darker?
-=Vel=-
The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.
I didn't dodge the question, I don't agree with your premise. I don't think that the only options you'd have in his ideal society are "forced education or death."
As for open societies, it's not a question of capitalism or communism, but democracy or dictatorship. West Bengal (controlled by commies), for instance, doesn't go about suppressing dissidents. On othe other hand, there are countless capitalists societies that do.
I don't know what Kid believes if you want to set up some sort of corporation in his system. You'd have to ask him. Not Stalin.
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
In the context it was written in, it means "we'll easily beat you in a civil war."
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
That would be one of those bloodless revolutions then, right?
-=Vel=-
The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.
Tell me Vel, what does I'm attacking Kid mean to you?
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
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