Communists, Don't Fear the Reaper....:D

[Velociryx]

Or does that fall under the heading of more of that "thinking stuff" that we're not supposed to be doing?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Is that suppose to be an argument against equality of income? Nope...just trying to push your thinking on it a little bit. See how robust the system is. Got an answer, or not really?

Do you believe in kicking dogs, yes or no? I don't expect you want to answer that. You must be a dog kicker.

[Velociryx]

Nope Kid...I sure don't. Do you?

And that IS an important question, because EVEN WITH absolute equality of income, you will not be able to avoid a society of "haves" and "have nots" without periodic redistribution/confiscation of accumulated material wealth.

And what happens when Flubber's family really starts to outshine his neighbors, pulling ahead of them in every measurable way? Better cars, more money, nicer home...EXPANSION to the home....

When the neighborhood gets into an uproar about the uppity, high-brow family down the lane there....what are the party bosses gonna do?

Don't think it won't happen, either, cos we've demonstrated how it can and will.

So what's the response?

Or would you like to try another artful dodge?

-=Vel=-

[GePap]

Some quotes of the original Marxist (thought not he original communist):

"In a higher phase of communist society... only then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right be fully left behind and society inscribe on its banners: from each according to his ability, to each according to his needs.."

"Women are the only exploited group in history to have been idealized into powerlessness."

"Anyone who knows anything of history knows that great social changes are impossible without feminine upheaval. Social progress can be measured exactly by the social position of the fair sex, the ugly ones included."

"Capital is money, capital is commodities. By virtue of it being value, it has acquired the occult ability to add value to itself. It brings forth living offspring, or, at the least, lays golden eggs."

"Nothing can have value without being an object of utility."

"Catch a man a fish, and you can sell it to him. Teach a man to fish, and you ruin a wonderful business opportunity."

"In bourgeois society capital is independent and has individuality, while the living person is dependent and has no individuality."

"Philosophy stands in the same relation to the study of the actual world as masturbation to sexual love."

"The bureaucracy is a circle from which one cannot escape. Its hierarchy is a hierarchy of knowledge. The top entrusts the understanding of detail to the lower levels, whilst the lower levels credit the top with understanding of the general, and so all are mutually deceived."

"The ideas of the ruling class are in every epoch the ruling ideas, i.e., the class which is the ruling material force of society, is at the same time its ruling intellectual force."

"The more the division of labor and the application of machinery extend, the more does competition extend among the workers, the more do their wages shrink together."

"The oppressed are allowed once every few years to decide which particular representatives of the oppressing class are to represent and repress them."

"The production of too many useful things results in too many useless people."

"The rich will do anything for the poor but get off their backs."

"We should not say that one man's hour is worth another man's hour, but rather that one man during an hour is worth just as much as another man during an hour. Time is everything, man is nothing: he is at the most time's carcass."

[Felch]

Originally posted by GePap
So wait, all of a sudden Kidicious is the grand theorist of communism, as opposed to Marx, Engels and so forth?

Since when?

He volunteered.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Nope Kid...I sure don't. Do you?

Ah. That's what you say, but you exploit workers so it must follow that you kick dogs. How do you like that?

And that IS an important question, because EVEN WITH absolute equality of income, you will not be able to avoid a society of "haves" and "have nots" without periodic redistribution/confiscation of accumulated material wealth.

They will have a good income, and the freedom to do with it what they want. I'm satisfied, but I guess you don't believe me.

[Velociryx]

I exploit workers?

When do I do this heinous exploitation?

Have you seen me doing so, or is that just your bias talking. Oh wait! YOU don't have any of that....it's only everyone who disagrees that is biased. Forgive my memory...

They will have a good income, and the freedom to do with it what they want. I'm satisfied, but I guess you don't believe me.

No...I absolutely don't believe you, and here's why: (some direct quote from you)

Equality is the upmost right in my book.

and

Yes. I'm opposed to you being ahead of me. Getting ahead rarely has to do with fairness in my book. You will have to justify it some how to convince me. How are people who don't get ahead inferior?


These two things to not add up to your satisfaction with sitting idly by and watching Flubber and hard working people like him "get ahead" of the rest of the pack.

It's unacceptable to you.

You have said so yourself.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

You have your own idea about me and my ideology, and you are arguing against that idea, not the actual me or my real ideology. I don't know what to say from here.

[Velociryx]

See Kid...the core problem is that I don't think YOU really know what you believe.

First wages were tied to amount of labor.

Then piece work.

Thinking wasn't work, but now it is. (which means that if you steal my invention, you ARE stealing my labor and exploiting me, by the way).

Property is good, so long as it can't be used to exploit. But even a DVD can be used to exploit....so that list must upgrade constantly, and will require a new layer of law enforcement to round up newly classified contraband materials.

You say you're a proponent of democracy and yet advocate a "swift and final blow" to get rid of those who oppose your view (most undemocratic, I gotta say).

So no.

I don't think you really know WHAT you believe.

Only that you're angry and you feel like the system owes you something.

I can understand anger, but it makes for a relatively poor basis for an ideology.

-=Vel=-

[Agathon]

I think that Vel should be forced to mine salt. It would save the world from his books.

[Velociryx]

Just out of curiosity, have you read them, Ag?

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
See Kid...the core problem is that I don't think YOU really know what you believe.

You obviously don't think I know what I believe, and you're trying to tell me what I believe. Some kind of brainwashing techniques I think.

[Kidlicious]

Vel,

Arguing against the real me must be too tough for you huh? You have to create a villian and argue against him. Is that what you do in your books? Sorry, you have to take me as I am. I'm a real person.

[Velociryx]

Kid....go back and read your own friggin words, for God's sake.

You have radically altered what your stated beliefs are during the course of this debate. I swear man, all that waffling would make you an OUTSTANDING politician....have you given that much thought as a career path?

I'm not telling you what you believe, I'm simply pointing out all the times that you've fundamentally altered your position during the span of the last two days, and drawing the conclusion that the REASON behind all the waffling is cos you just plain don't know what you think.

And that's okay.

I'm not faulting you for that.

But when you attempt to make a rock solid argument out of a shifting plane of sand, it doesn't work.

A perfect example would be this:

You tell Flubber that it's not fair if he "gets ahead" (meaning that you're very concerned about maintaining a classless society where everybody starts, and remains equal...because that's one of your stated beliefs...equality is of utmost importance to you).

But when confronted with a scenario USING YOUR OWN SYSTEM where class differences begin to form, rather than fix the system you designed, you simply change the argument. Now, it's no longer a concern that Flubber's "getting ahead," cos hey....equal work for equal pay man, and you're done.

But the two positions contradict each other.

Get it?

-=Vel=-

[Velociryx]

Oh...and as to my books...buy them and read for yourself....stop trying to exploit my labor by getting me to tell you all about them...

-=Vel=-