John Kerry the war criminal: Unfit to command, part 2

[Drake Tungsten]

Except for the minor detail it hasn't been proven to be a lie. Have you seen GPS tracks or nav logs for Kerry's boat to document where it was?

Can't you learn the facts, MtG? It's obviously been proven to be a lie. All of Kerry's commanding officers claim that Kerry never went to Cambodia. All the men who served on Kerry's boat say that they weren't anywhere near Cambodia on Christmas of 1968. Kerry's own diary says that he was safe and "dreaming of sugar plums", not being shot at by Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. And the Kerry campaign quickly backed away from the claim once the truth came out.

Kerry was at Sa Dec, 50 miles away from Cambodia on Christmas 1968, not in Cambodia as he has claimed for decades. Anyone who disputes this is a complete partisan hack, no better than GePap. Welcome to the club.

At least you've had the intelligence to steer away from the horribly biased NYT hit piece on the SwiftVets, though. I knew GePap couldn't resist using such a blatant piece of propaganda, but I wasn't sure about you. Maybe there's still hope for you to regain your previously exalted status here on Poly...

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ned
Che, how many times do I have to spike this outright lie?

Have you ever?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
the horribly biased NYT hit piece on the SwiftVets,

Do you have any credibility left?

[Gibsie]

Originally posted by Ned
MtG, the plan was to force a peace treaty, get our POWs back and withdraw. The North wanted us to hand them the keys to Saigon as their price to give us the POWs. What Kerry did was delay for years any chance for our POWs to be set free, and as result caused an additional 20,000+ KIA. The blood of many Americans drips from Kerry's hands.

Damn, I knew Kerry was accused of some dodgy stuff from Vietnam, but he's personally responsible for 20,000+ dead Americans? Yikes!

[Drake Tungsten]

Do you have any credibility left?

It's funny that an avowed Communist would ask me that.

[Ned]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


Have you ever?

The only thing negotiated during the Johnson administration was the shape of the table, and that in January, 1969.

Nixon publicly announced his Vietnamization plan early in his administration. He began withdrawing troops big time beginning the summer of '69.

[Drake Tungsten]

Kerry files a complaint with the FEC against the Swift Boat Vets. Looks like they're having quite an impact, even with the mainstream media doing nothing save attempting to smear them.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

Do you have any credibility left?

It's funny that an avowed Communist would ask me that.

Yes, but we all know Che is honest about his positions. You may disagree 100% with his views, but his honesty is a different thing. Yours on the other hand...

Can you provide ANY documentation to show any charge other than the whole Cambodia story which has nothing to do with his medals and the actions in which he gained them, have any corraboration in the records of 30 years ago? Cause you, these bozos or the Moonies at the WaTi have yet to come up with anything. You call the NYT piece propagandad- can you disprove any of its statements of fact? Until you do, you have nothing (which is your normal position on these matters).

As for filing with the FEC, good for Kerry. And let Bush do the same with MoveOn. Cause comparing their adds, MoveON could survive the challenge far better than this org.

[DanS]

I don't think he really wants to do that. It opens up the books on MoveOn and other 527s allied with his campaign.

The FEC filings, by creating "events" to report regularly throughout the proceedings, ensure that the swift boat vets issue will continue to be a part of the campaign. I think this is pretty stupid of Kerry, especially since he's going to lose on the filing.

I hope Bush doesn't succumb to temptation and file a counter-complaint against MoveOn or Michael Moore, for instance. It would just lend more credence to the much more despicable hit pieces done by these folks.

[Drake Tungsten]

Can you provide ANY documentation to show any charge other than the whole Cambodia story which has nothing to do with his medals and the actions in which he gained them, have any corraboration in the records of 30 years ago?

You expect me to find the documentary evidence, if it exists, from my apartment in Japan? God, you really are a ****ing moron.

I can't go searching for the evidence, obviously. That's why it pisses me off that the investigative journalists in the mainstream media (whose job it is to look into things like this) are ignoring the charges of the Swift Boat Vets because of their partisan support for Kerry. A large group of veterans are making serious charges against a candidate for the presidency of the United States. One of these charges has already been proven accurate through the work of amateur journalists in the blogosphere. A big thumbs-up to the bloggers, but I'd still prefer it if the reporters in the mainstream media would do their ****ing job and actually investigate this issue. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be going away as they wanted, so maybe they'll be forced to actually deal with this issue sometime in the future. Most people aren't partisan morons like you who will accept articles like today's piece in the NYT as responsible journalism, so they're going to have to actually deal with the issue fairly at some point. I hope so, at least...

You call the NYT piece propagandad- can you disprove any of its statements of fact?

What is there to disprove in the NYT piece? It's nothing but breathless reporting of extremely tenuous ties between the Bush Administration and a couple of the men who have donated money to the Swifties, coupled with a nearly complete avoidance of the issues the Swifties raise, particularly the Cambodia charge that has already been proven. It's partisan hackwork at its most obvious and not really worth reading, let alone discussing.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
You expect me to find the documentary evidence, if it exists, from my apartment in Japan? God, you really are a ****ing moron.

At least I need not stoop to your level to prove you wrong. Really sad Drake, really sad.

I can't go searching for the evidence, obviously. That's why it pisses me off that the investigative journalists in the mainstream media (whose job it is to look into things like this) are ignoring the charges of the Swift Boat Vets because of their partisan support for Kerry. A large group of veterans are making serious charges against a candidate for the presidency of the United States. One of these charges has already been proven accurate through the work of amateur journalists in the blogosphere. A big thumbs-up to the bloggers, but I'd still prefer it if the reporters in the mainstream media would do their ****ing job and actually investigate this issue. Luckily, it doesn't seem to be going away as they wanted, so maybe they'll be forced to actually deal with this issue sometime in the future. Most people aren't partisan morons like you who will accept articles like today's piece in the NYT as responsible journalism, so they're going to have to actually deal with the issue fairly at some point. I hope so, at least...

Maybe you don't get it- but obviously you are a simple person, so lets take it simply, and lets use the NYT piece you criticize to show you why you are wrong.

These vets claims that there was no enemy fire during the missions in which Kerry won medals. This group makes this charge, and provides as proof statements from its members. OK, so how does one investigate that?

Well, a good investigator first gets the stories from everyone: the SBV provide one set of stories- Kerry and his supporters provide another set of statements. But all of these are statements 30 years after the facts, AND contradictory as well (one set says there was no fire, the other that there was). So, given two sets of contardictory statements about events 30 years before, you seek better evidence, specially any evidence contemporanous with the events in question. What we have then are the official navy records, navy logs, incident reports, and all other public records which the papers, including the NYT's, have checked.

And lo and behold- the offical navy records of the time one by one back up Kerry's comments. So, given two sets of contradictory statements, the tie breaker is the more solid evidence from the very period. And that evidence backs Kerry.

So tell us oh Drakie poo, just how are "reponsible investigative reporters" supposed to check? Besides THE OFFICAL NAVY RECORDS, what magical stash of information is there to tap, huh?

Please, so tell.

[Drake Tungsten]

So tell us oh Drakie poo, just how are "reponsible investigative reporters" supposed to check? Besides THE OFFICAL NAVY RECORDS, what magical stash of information is there to tap, huh?

Please, so tell.

They could try checking Kerry's diaries. Or the diaries/journals of other people involved in the incident. They could also check past statements about the events by Kerry and the Swifties, to see if any of them had changed stories over the years. Of course, the best way would be for them to push for the release of Kerry's military records, just as they did when investigating Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard.

Wow, your hardball question sure was easy to answer. It's good to know that my contempt for you and your intellectual prowess is well-founded.

[GePap]

Don't worry Drake, cause your response more than shows your level of debate, and how pathetic it is:

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
They could try checking Kerry's diaries. Or the diaries/journals of other people involved in the incident. They could also check past statements about the events by Kerry and the Swifties, to see if any of them had changed stories over the years.

The Swiftboat vets and Kerry all are equally free to provide, or not provide their own personal diaries if any exist. But as a public investigator, the press has no right to any of that, anymore than they have a right to your diary. Interestingly, I don;t remember Democrats demanding Bush turn over his diaries, which would conclusively prove he was on base the whole time, NO? Maybe cause dems. have more common sense?

As for changing stories- well, if you had the brains to read, you would notice that the NYT piece points to several changes of story by the swiftboat vets. Do I know if Kerry has ever changed his statements about that day? No, but then, I have not seen any of the rightwing papers or magazines that you love to post, like the Washington Times or the National Review come up with Kerry changing his story about the events of those days in which he won his medals.

Of course, the best way would be for them to push for the release of Kerry's military records, just as they did when investigating Bush's service in the Texas Air National Guard.

Oh lord, do you actually read any of the posts made in this thread, or are you just here to talk trash?

Most of John Kerry's record is PUBLIC DOMAIN- hell, even you could get your hands on it if you filed a Freedom of Information act request. And lo and behold, the papers have- hence the multiple references in the NYT piece to Kerry's military records MtG has already, much better than I could, explained in this very thread the difference between the Kerry records that help to answer these claims, and what type of records were needed by Bush to disclose in order to challenge the claims made against him (the Bush payroll recodrs and such were not public domain, but needed authorization)

Wow, your hardball question sure was easy to answer. It's good to know that my contempt for you and your intellectual prowess is well-founded.

There is nothing more pathetic than someone too stubborn, proud, or simply deluded enough not to notice when they have made a total ass of themselves. BUt you are trully exemplary of such a person. Good job

[DanS]

One has to wonder whether Kerry's decision to rely so much on his comparative Vietnam war record versus Bush was a grave error. There's got to be a lot of decades-old footage of Kerry saying some things that will reflect poorly on him in today's environment, given his anti-war protests.

WaPo has an article on this, showing that this issue is cutting like a knife among veterans, or at least both campaigns believe it is cutting like a knife.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A20193-2004Aug20.html

[GePap]

And Veterans are a small part of the voting public, and far less important than say women or minorities for Kerry - he should be spending his time and money ensuring maximum hispanic and black voter turnout than worrying about keeping what has always been a highly republican field like veterans.