John Kerry the war criminal: Unfit to command, part 2

[Sikander]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Right, because Iran Contra and Savings and Loan made Reagan and Bush look so squeaky clean and 'honourable'.


Didn't notice any of those people eulogizing Reagan seeming to be too bothered by 'facts' and 'evidence' and 'truth'- but then even Richard Nixon gets a coating of whitewash after he's dead.

And now you're complaining that a talk show host treats people the same way conservative hosts and shock jocks treat them, and that somehow this is linked with Kerry too?


Time to stop smoking whatever it is you're smoking Ned.

Or at least share.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


I don't know how much experience you've had with the M79 / M203 / Mk19, but I really doubt it's possible to frag yourself with one, since the fuze is designed to prevent self-injury.

With the M383 or M384 40mm HE grenade, blast radius is a maximum of 15 meters, while the arming distance of the M533 fuze is 18-36 meters. There's also not enough casing mass in the grenade to have very effective fragment density at 15 meters, so the effects at that range are generally limited to concussive effects.

Unless the Swiftboat vets come up with (and they haven't, it's just another inconsistency of many) a real good explanation for self-inflicted injury, I think it's safe to just disregard those allegations as the sort of stories that go around after the fact about somebody you didn't like. Typical FNG stories, but in this case, not possible as described.

I heard that the M-79 ammunition was altered to prevent self-inflicted wounds (with an obvious exception for the buckshot rounds) sometime after it was initially deployed. That may be wrong, but it's what one of my Vietnam Veteran sergeants told me in basic training. We also learned that the rounds have a kill radius (%50 chance of causing a casualty to anyone within) of 5 meters.

It seems quite possible (though perhaps unlikely) that someone could fire one 25 meters or so away and still get a minor ding from shrapnel which can cause nasty wounds five meters away. I note that hand grenades (fragmentation) are still considered a danger no matter how far they are thrown, and we had to throw them 30+ meters on the grenade range. Of course they are a lot heavier than the 40mm grenades and contain a lot more "shrapnel" (in their case notched wire). But then again the main effect of the 40 mm grenade is (as you say) concussion, which means that a much higher percentage of the total weight of the round is in the form of explosives and propellants.

I'm not convinced by the (lack of) evidence either way on this point, but it is possible (IMO) that he could have been wounded by friendly fire. I'm convinced enough that I wouldn't want to test this hypothesis using my own body.

[Patroklos]

I agree with the citation assesment. I write them all the time and they are limited to seven lines, four of which are almost always uniform, no matter what particular citation it is.

It is also very common for officers to write their own citations, simply because their boss is too busy to do it himself. You still have the get it approved, but the language is yours. In Vietam I highly doubt Kerry's overall commander had the time or inclination to read all the citiations that came through his desk. PH's were everyday things at that time, and coming from an officer it probobly didn't get as much scrutiny.

As for the AAR, in peace time every incident would be filed and refiled. In wartime, especially one like that, you record what was really important. A swift boat hitting a mine in a non-combat atmosphere would not have been considered significant by anyone concerned, unless you were milking it for medals.

And while I am normally in line with you MtG about military stuff, and know you are greatly experianced in the topic, tryign to whitewash arguements by throwing out specs is wrong. The fact is that it is very possible for Kerry to have wounded himself with such a grenade, even if using it properly. And god knows how often they used them, just increasing the chance for an incident. And yes, I have fired them as well.

[SpencerH]

Interesting. So far, it looks like MtG is the only vet here who supports Kerry (that may be too strong a term) on this issue. If this is a 'random sample', and I see no reason to think its not, Kerry has lost the vet-vote.

[Spiffor]

The Vet-poll started by The Mad Monk implies otherwise.

[SpencerH]

That poll is not well set up and has far less comments by vets than these threads. I did forget about Wittlich though (why does he when he says he will vote for Kerry?) . Look through the comments that are sceptical of Kerry's record, most of them are from vets. I suppose that doesnt mean they'll vote for Bush though.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten
referring to Michelle Malkin.

She's hot, though.

Very!

[Ned]

Observing Michael the Great over years, I would say that one of the thing that he hates the most are chicken****s. I think that Kerry clearly merits that denominator based solely on his request for at least one, and probably two, Purple Hearts for minor shrapnel wounds that probably were self-inflicted. Virtually everyone who knew the facts at the time in Vietnam thought that Kerry was a chicken****. So I wonder just how much longer Michael The Great can continue to support this empty suit, this fraud, this chicken****.

[Ming]

I don't think that MtG supports Kerry... He just hates Bush... And that given a choice, Kerry is the lesser of two evils

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

I know you're just a teenager, honey

I'm 25 years old...

Sorry, I was going by your posting style and displayed depth of knowledge.

Only a desperate minority.

Yep. And it's really sad to see that you've become one of them, MtG. Honestly.

Riiiiiiight. So when an incumbent is in the lead, and has accomplishments and forward vision to run on, his supporters launch attack ads based on what may or may not have happened 35 years ago?

If that thought is what'll get you through four years of Kerry, then that's fine. It'll pass quickly.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by notyoueither
What is it that people accuse UR of doing every time someone is critical of China? Oh yeah, they accuse him of obfuscation by bringing up bad things in or about other countries.

I'm curious, how is the UN supposed to react to the US being led by an admitted war criminal?

Have many people outside of the US given any thought to what effect Mr. Kerry could have on US trade policy?

People have been willing to trade with the Saudis, with Saddam, with the USSR, and with China, even right after Tiananmen. Anybody who wants to stop trading with the US is welcome to do so - there will be plenty of other countries who'll take up the slack.

Or are you suggesting Bush has a better reputation in view of the widespread, universal acclaim for the war in Iraq?

[Ned]

Originally posted by Ming
I don't think that MtG supports Kerry... He just hates Bush... And that given a choice, Kerry is the lesser of two evils

The problem is that people with character flaws like Kerry's cannot be trusted. Bush, in my observation, is honest and does what he says he will do. With Kerry, he will say one thing, then do another, depending only on what is good for Kerry.

[Ned]

NYE, the UN will welcome Kerry, war criminal, with open arms. He will feel quite at home, if you know what I mean.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Ming
I don't think that MtG supports Kerry... He just hates Bush... And that given a choice, Kerry is the lesser of two evils

And that is an understandbale position, just opposite mine, considering I think Kerry the greater of two evils.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ned
Observing Michael the Great over years, I would say that one of the thing that he hates the most are chicken****s.

Yep.

I think that Kerry clearly merits that denominator based solely on his request for at least one, and probably two, Purple Hearts for minor shrapnel wounds that probably were self-inflicted.

Only a few problems with this one.

(a) Where are the records that Kerry "requested" decorations?

(b) The Swiftboat vets need to get their basic story straight. According to one story, Kerry was this dangerous chicken**** officer who they wanted to be rid of, so their CO gave him bogus citations (including two for valor, even though that has nothing to do with getting out of 'Nam) to get rid of him. According to the more recent version, they knew nothing until his book came out, then they were shocked at his supposed lies and distortions. Even though he'd been a prominent public figure who they hated for decades.

(c) Whether or not the "minor shrapnel wounds" were minor or not, Kerry must apparently be the only vet who ever got to write and approve his own Purple Heart recommendations.

Virtually everyone who knew the facts at the time in Vietnam thought that Kerry was a chicken****.

Except for people like Rassmann, and everyone who actually served on Kerry's boats except Gardner. But obviously, they don't count, and only the self-serving politically motivated after-the-fact claims of guys who admit disliking Kerry for his VVAW activities count. Those were the guys with infallible memories, everyone else was just brainwashed. Oh yeah, and according to at least one of these people, McCain's a gook spy who spent his captivity partying with the Soviets and banging a Vietnamese mistress.

Besides, while Kerry was being an alleged chicken**** in 'Nam, Bush was bravely defending the skies over Texas from the Free Mexican Air Force, then working on a political campaign in Alabama after getting bumped from flight status for failing to show up for a physical. Let's talk about chicken****, shall we? And Bush is too chicken**** to weigh in on one side or another - just like he was in the primaries against McCain.

So I wonder just how much longer Michael The Great can continue to support this empty suit, this fraud, this chicken****.

At least four years, baby. Infinitely longer than I would ever support the real fraud and chicken**** currently in office.