The Dead Horse Rides again: Cap/Com Debate

[Kropotkin]

Originally posted by Sandman
It's never 60%. This article says that it's 22%.

newkerala.com

Still, they are important. But isn't that the case for the rest of India, with the vast numbers of underutilised graduates they produce?

I found the figure of 60 % and went with it, even if it seemed a tad to much.

Still, it seems that the remittances from those 1.83 million makes up the backbone of the economy, as it's by far the largest single source of income for it.

[Berzerker]

Berz says that Communism lasted 70 years before dying out, and then you say "Lies! This is false! Communism died almost immediately!"

You have a lot to learn about making effective arguments.

[Velociryx]

To reply to something Monolith said in another thread:

Harming individuals who think outside the box harms the group. It's is not good communism to do so, and is the easiest proof that this world has yet to see a true communist society.

Hey Monolith!

So...if harming free thinkers (those who think outside the box) is bad for communism, then I hope you'll agree that it's not too much of a stretch to say that nurturing them would be GOOD for communism, yes?

(in fact, I would go so far as to say that this approach would be good for ANY society, regardless of its politics or structure).

And as you say, given that free thinkers have generally been hunted down as executed as being "disruptive elements" in previous Big Red Renditions, this is at least one of the factors for its eventual demise.

Now, one of the best and most effective ways to nurture free thinking is to provide tangible incentives to do so, and I"m not talking about extending invites to party dinners or little plaques to hang stylishly on a wall somewhere. Those are fun, but they don't really get the job done, incentive-wise.

There's an economic system in place in the world today that does that very thing.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

You mean we had to read that whole thing to find out that you don't agree or disagree with his opinion?

[monolith94]

Vel -

"Now, one of the best and most effective ways to nurture free thinking is to provide tangible incentives to do so, and I"m not talking about extending invites to party dinners or little plaques to hang stylishly on a wall somewhere. Those are fun, but they don't really get the job done, incentive-wise.

There's an economic system in place in the world today that does that very thing."

What you're talking about is economic free-thinking - you seem to be stating that having a freemarket allows people to innovate in the market place. However, the free market does nothing to nourish free-thinking in other respects. To nourish free thinking in political, philisophical, cultural and other areas a society must create a system of education and funding that helps people without cash gain an education and spend lots of time studying.

There's nothing inherent in a communist/socialist society that says that that sort of an educational system cannot be built.

If you want to talk about incentive, here's the incentive: tell the child that if he works hard, studies hard, and takes his responsibilities seriously, the government will sponsor him or her for further education. That's real incentive, and there's nothing free-market about it. It's just good civilization.

[Agathon]

Mono

[Lefty Scaevola]

Capitalism better rewards doers and winner than communism, which better rewards slackers and losers. Regarless of the underlying theory, guess which one will do much better at attracting the skill adhearents to make it work.

[Lefty Scaevola]

Originally posted by monolith94
There's nothing inherent in a communist/socialist society that says that that sort of an educational system cannot be built.

If you want to talk about incentive, here's the incentive: tell the child that if he works hard, studies hard, and takes his responsibilities seriously, the government will sponsor him or her for further education. That's real incentive, and there's nothing free-market about it. It's just good civilization.

Wrong, the centralization of power inherent to the to a centalized command economy will mean that such benefits only go to the families and cronies of thoses that hold the power.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Generally what prevents a worker from buyng stocks in his company is that if he is like most Americans, he lives paycheck to paycheck, and can't spare any money for such things.

Even for those who can afford stock (generally, in the form of a pension plan), it is very rarely voting stock. So they might have 0.0000001% of the capital in a company, but they have even less of a say in its governence.

ah, but many americans have the option of being paid in stock options, espcially those who work in industry etc. and yeah, maybe its not voting stock, but he still owns the means of production.

[Velociryx]

Monolith - I don't dispute what you're saying. Yes, it is (theoretically) possible to structure incentive as you say, but why?

Why reward innovation with a relatively inflexible benefit?

Why not instead reward that innovation with something vastly more flexible (dollars) and let the innovator decide what to do with his reward?

Maybe he'll choose to further his own education.

Maybe he'll choose to buy a big house in the country.

Nothing wrong with that.

What mystifies me is why you're so afraid to let individuals BE individuals.

We don't need...have never needed some monolithic state organization to hold our hands.

We never will.

-=Vel=-

[Agathon]

We don't need...have never needed some monolithic state organization to hold our hands.

That's exactly what we've always needed since we lived in small bands of savages.

[Velociryx]

That, then, Agathon, is where we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I'm tellin' you...*I* don't need, appreciate, or want a big, monolithic state organization looking over my shoulder, telling me what to say, how to live, WHERE to live, and how to think.

And I am not alone. (not by a longshot)

If you're comfortable in that environment, more power to you. Glad for you. See you in the bread line and all that.

But IF you try to push your kinder, gentler monolithic state brotherhood on me and others like me, we will resist.

I promise.



-=Vel=-

[Kuciwalker]

Vel! Stop it!

[Velociryx]

Sorry Walker...just couldn't help myself.

It mystifies me how people can WANT to live in a highly centralized controlled environment.

What is it??? I'd really like to know.

Just for the convenience of not having to worry about thinking for oneself? (intellectual laziness, don't bother to think, we'll take care of that for you...the Party bosses will tell you what the 'acceptable thoughts' are)

For the pseudo-luxury of living off the effort of others? (cos let's face it, if I'm getting the same reward for sitting on my arse as I do for working a fourteen hour day, three guesses which one I'm picking!)

Or something else entire?

Cos from what we've seen so far, Utopia, it ain't.

-=Vel=-

[Agathon]

Originally posted by Velociryx
That, then, Agathon, is where we'll just have to agree to disagree, because I'm tellin' you...*I* don't need, appreciate, or want a big, monolithic state organization looking over my shoulder, telling me what to say, how to live, WHERE to live, and how to think.

And I am not alone. (not by a longshot)

If you're comfortable in that environment, more power to you. Glad for you. See you in the bread line and all that.

But IF you try to push your kinder, gentler monolithic state brotherhood on me and others like me, we will resist.

I promise.



-=Vel=-

Yes you do, you just can't see the wood for the trees.

Every large community of human beings has always needed the state. Capitalism needs it just as badly as any other form of human organization save small tribal villages. You show me any large human community that hasn't had some kind of state apparatus.

A vast state apparatus is required in Capitalism to enforce contracts, keep track of who owns what, and who owes what to whom, as well as to regulate so as to avoid collective action problems such as pollution.

Them's just the facts. If you want to dream different, go ahead - it's just a dream. Of course people get a lot of mileage out of feeling victimized by the goverment, but the alternative is worse.