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The Dead Horse Rides again: Cap/Com Debate

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  • #61
    That's always a good argument.

    "Of course you do silly boy...you just don't know it yet!"

    And it is you who are quite mistaken.

    Yes, there is no doubting that we need some form of governance.

    I never said there wasn't.

    What is not needed is a monolithic, highly centralized power to tell you when to stand, when to sit, what to think, and when to $hit.

    No thanks.

    I'm all for the rule of law. Definitely not an archist.

    But tell me...how would your flavor of the month of communism be any different than what's come before?

    How would you implement it? How would you deal with dissenters and folks who really didn't appreciate the sublime logic of strongarming all their posessions "for the good of the state" (which of course, magically translates to "for their own good").

    There is a tremendous difference between needing "the state"

    and needing the sort of highly centralized apparatus that communism requires.

    If you can't see that, then it must be all those dang trees getting in the way again.
    -=Vel=-
    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

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    • #62
      What is not needed is a monolithic, highly centralized power to tell you when to stand, when to sit, what to think, and when to $hit.
      And how many communists on this board actually argue for that?

      In fact what you've described sounds like a lot of schools and many places of employment.

      How would you implement it? How would you deal with dissenters and folks who really didn't appreciate the sublime logic of strongarming all their posessions "for the good of the state" (which of course, magically translates to "for their own good").
      The same way capitalism deals with dissenters, by ignoring them. There's a reason that radical anarchists, libertarians and communists can't get much traction in contemporary politics: most people are reasonably satisfied with welfare state capitalism and the very structure of the system makes it hard to dissent effectively (radical anarchists and poor people tend not to own media empires, and even if they did other interests would make sure they failed).

      And we already get strongarmed by the state every day - for our own good.

      Jesus, most left wing people I know are not calling for an immediate communist revolution (maybe Che is, but I'm not). Rather they are calling for specific reforms within the welfare state capitalist system to deal with specific problems like pollution and unemployment.

      Arguments about the validity of a communist utopia are interesting theoretical arguments, but they have little practical applicability at this very moment in time. Like almost everything in human affairs, we will cross that bridge when we come to it.

      How would you implement it?
      That's a nonsensical question. Who implemented capitalism? Nobody - it implemented itself. It just happened as a response to social and technological developments.

      If you want to ignore the most fundamental aspect of Marxism (its radical historicity) then go ahead. Unless you argue against that, you aren't addressing the point.
      Only feebs vote.

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      • #63
        Agathon,

        your own language suggests a specific point of implementation.

        most left wing people I know are not calling for an immediate communist revolution

        What else could that possibly mean?

        A communist revolution needs revolutionaries. People who lead the charge and usher in the new system.

        Those are your implementors.

        And let us assume the revolution comes tomorrow....it's implementation will have to be forcible, because I can't think of too many of the wealthy who will just hand over their worldly goods when you show up asking for them "for their own good."

        In fact then, in order to maintain order and deal with these "dissenters" you'll need a highly centralized political machine to pull the revolution off.

        Once it's established, do you really think that the fathers OF said revolution will simply relinquish their absolute power?

        Really?

        Of course they won't.

        -=Vel=-
        The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

        Comment

        • #64
          Originally posted by Velociryx
          and needing the sort of highly centralized apparatus that communism requires.
          Does not.
          I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
          - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

          Comment

          • #65
            And let us assume the revolution comes tomorrow....
            Which I pointed out is extremely unlikely. The revolutionaries are unlikely to get any sort of traction until a large proportion of the public loses faith in the current system. You seem to think that people like Che will turn up at the Capitol tomorrow and seize power to the astonishment of the general public. Give me a break...

            Do you actually read what other people post, or do you just have a stock of asinine comments that you save for relevant occasions?
            Only feebs vote.

            Comment

            • #66
              Originally posted by Agathon
              Who implemented capitalism? Nobody - it implemented itself. It just happened as a response to social and technological developments.

              Vel thinks that communism is about implementing a master plan to rule the world.
              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

              Comment

              • #67
                I always laugh at the "no no, that wasn't REALLY Communism!!!"

                Sorry, there are no "do-overs"
                We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

                Comment

                • #68
                  Originally posted by Kidicious

                  Vel thinks that communism is about implementing a master plan to rule the world.
                  Shut up... that's supposed to be our secret.

                  Sorry, there are no "do-overs"
                  Post 1929 Keynesian policies....
                  Only feebs vote.

                  Comment

                  • #69
                    Ummm...actually it is about ruling the world.

                    So sayeth every Red who bemoans the previous failures of the red pony by saying that it can't work until and unless it's implemented on a global scale.

                    What does that suggest to you?

                    -=Vel=-
                    The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                    Comment

                    • #70
                      As to the looming revolution....

                      You're absolutely correct. Can't happen unless a significant portion of the population loses faith in the current system.

                      However, "significant portion" and "all of" aren't the same thing.

                      I may have trouble balancing my check book, but my math's not THAT bad.

                      So...when you reach that point, again, you think it'll just be bloodless. All-join-hand-and-sing-Kumbayah together while we confiscate your stuff?

                      Not likely.

                      Which means violence.

                      If you lack the stomach for it, you're prolly in the wrong game.

                      If you don't think it will require a highly centralized approach (Kid) then you're living in a land not dissimilar to Chutes and Ladders or Candyland.

                      Pure fantasy.

                      But please, feel free to tell me how, if not in that manner. (which should make for good reading!)'

                      -=Vel=-
                      The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                      Comment

                      • #71
                        However, "significant portion" and "all of" aren't the same thing.


                        This is no different than what we have now. Libertarians still pay taxes, even though they gripe about it, and communists still go to work, even though they think they are being exploited.

                        When laws change and taxes are hiked or property is appropriated for public use, people gripe - but most get used to it.

                        Why don't you find a workable argument before you waste people's time again?
                        Only feebs vote.

                        Comment

                        • #72


                          Even better, why don't you Reds find a workable SYSTEM before wasting our time again....

                          -=Vel=-
                          The list of published books grows. If you're curious to see what sort of stories I weave out, head to Amazon.com and do an author search for "Christopher Hartpence." Help support Candle'Bre, a game created by gamers FOR gamers. All proceeds from my published works go directly to the project.

                          Comment

                          • #73
                            Originally posted by Agathon
                            Shut up... that's supposed to be our secret.


                            Trust me. It won't matter. He still doesn't have a chance.
                            I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                            - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                            Comment

                            • #74
                              Originally posted by Velociryx
                              Ummm...actually it is about ruling the world.
                              I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                              - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                              Comment

                              • #75
                                Ag,

                                Was 'How to Rule the World; the first or second chapter of Das Kapital ? Im not sure if 'How to Stifle all Freedom' was the first.
                                I drank beer. I like beer. I still like beer. ... Do you like beer Senator?
                                - Justice Brett Kavanaugh

                                Comment

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