The Dead Horse Rides again: Cap/Com Debate

[Velociryx]

Well Che, let's see.

We're not gonna let the market decide, so we need a....what?

A central agency to plan?

And of course, that central agency needs to be able to defend itself, cos it's gonna be born into a hostile environment.

Which means guns to guard the butter, yes?

Put guns and all the power in the hands of those in the center, and...what do you have again?

:: shakes head sadly::

Do you even KNOW what you're arguing for?

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by monolith94
Velocyrix - all of this stuff about crushing thoughts outside the party line... That's Stalinist, even Leninist communism.

You might want to consider that while Lenin was alive, the Bolsheviks and Communists were always a multitendency organization, with Lenin frequently being outvoted. It was only in the 1930s that the Party became monolithic, once the Trotskyists and Buhkarinists had been purged. It took Stalin more than ten years to get the party all to himself, so it's not a quality of Leninism.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
Well Che, let's see.
strawman

stawman

strawman

Argue against what I write, not what you think I believe, okay?

[Velociryx]

That's the beauty of the theory, Che....the sublime nature of it.

It's all join hands, sing a few rounds of Kumbayah and isn't life grand, but glosses over the fact that it's implementation is brutal.

How do we know this?

History's a wonderful guide.

Prove me wrong tho....tell us about Communism's peaceful implementation.

-=Vel=-

[chequita guevara]

Tell me about capitalism's peaceful implimentation.

[Velociryx]

artful dodge, but you see, I'm not the one calling for the revolution.

Capitalism's here. What you're arguing for is not (or at least, not to hear you guys tell it...it's AMAZING the speed with which ya'll backpedal away from the fathers of the previous revolutions).

So if it's coming...tell us how?

If it's NOT going to be the same old highly centralized song and dance, if it's not going to be filled with purgings, then....what?

How will the NEXT glorious revolution be different?

-=Vel=-

[monolith94]

Global implementation is a simplistic fantasy of naive idealists. But I'd rather have a naive idealist on my side than a pessimistic capitalist.

How does Communism actually become implemented? We mechanize society to the point where the entire blue-collar worker is superfluous. This will eventually happen. Not for quite a while, but I believe it will.

Simply put, I think that it will take years and years and years for society to change in such a fundamental way, but it will happen. And it will be a lot more complex than anyone on this thread is making it out to be.

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by David Floyd
This is a meaningless post, I just wanted to draw attention to my signature, which features a Kidicious quote, with contextual commentary

I don't really support either of those things DF. That's capitalism.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Velociryx
So if it's coming...tell us how?

If I knew the answer to that, I'd be leading a real communist party, and not the Communist Party of Apolyton.

Anyways, as you don't seem to seriously want a real discussion, I'm just gonna dance around poke fun at you.

[David Floyd]

I don't really support either of those things DF. That's capitalism.

Oh, you don't support welfare? Can I also assume that you oppose all other "wealth-transfer" programs?

[Velociryx]

Monolith, I like that answer. It has the ring of truth and honesty to it.

It's genuine.

You're essentially fessing up to the fact that you don't know, and that's a good thing.

That is, I believe, what's at the core of the problem with the vast majority of the folks arguing for Communism on this, and other boards I fight the good fight for Capitalism on.

Yeah yeah, the red desciples have read the book and god but it all sounds so groovy and they get all excited thinking about the day when utopia arrives.....

....but they don't stop to consider exactly what that means, I don't think (and it certainly doesn't seem so). The specific steps required to get to that point.

They talk a good game about a radically altered system of deciding on how goods and services are doled out, without thinking about the infrastructure required to support it (ie - Che's comment that he "wasn't arguing for" a highly centralized apparatus....that's pretty much what a central planning agency IS, and it does require defense, but...anyway...that's veeringn off-topic).

Anyhoo....I appreciate your candor...

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Velociryx
How will the NEXT glorious revolution be different?

We will crush ALL of the counter-revolutionaries!

[Velociryx]

And props to Che, who also fessed up that he didn't have those answers.

Folks....before the revolution comes...it might be a good idea to give those questions some thought.

Not that I'm trying to help ya'll along, but....if you're hoping to avoid the mistakes of the past, it just might be a good idea.

-=Vel=-

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by David Floyd


Oh, you don't support welfare? Can I also assume that you oppose all other "wealth-transfer" programs?

I don't oppose or support any programs for capitalism. I argue about the fundamentals and justification of such things. It's just for my own interest.

[monolith94]

Velocyrix - the main driving force of Socialism is PEACE. This is why corporations have no true interest in peace.

At this point in our history, a true, lasting peace seems really difficult to achieve. When it does, then and only then can we talk about reform. Right now I feel that our government should be focused on developing stability in the third world.