Tax the rich!!!

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by atomant
In regard to death tax, I agree with Ming, why should I or my estate have to pay tax twice on money I have earned.

Since the recipient of your inheritance did not earn it, so the tax is on him getting the money, not on you.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by OzzyKP
DanS me? What does that mean?

N00b

[Saras]

--"You forgot, poverty is relative."

In extreme, if everyone is making 100k per year and you are making 90k, you are poor?

[Urban Ranger]

Yes.

Your income would be below average, below median, and below the mode.

[Saras]

own goal

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by atomant

If that makes me a miser, or a scrooge, so be it. One thing people often forget is that wealthy people employ others to work for them, thereby creating employment and injecting further money into the economy for the purchase of goods and services. Are we saying we wish to tax until death (and beyond) those people who allow the rest of us to enjoy a life?

Well that is not what i'm saying. I'm saying reduce earnings taxes by replacing as much of the money as possible dollar for dollar with income from the death tax instead. In the US there is discussion of eliminating the death tax completely which makes no sense since the shortfall will obviously generate a need for the government to steal even more from my paycheck. no thanks.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Saras
own goal

You wish.

[Geronimo]

ok, most of the opposition to the death tax that I'm seeing in this thread appears to be rooted in profoundly admirable values. People hate it because they love their families and want to protect them from all economic inconveniences. Loving our families is a very good thing. However what nobody appears to be recognizing is that income taxes hurt our families every bit as much! Why oh why do people reason that their families perfer losing a dollar from their paychecks over a dollar from their inheritance? EVERY FRICKEN PENNY of taxation that is removed when death tax is removed must be made up through other taxes! *ALL* of which hurt our families!

People talk about being taxed twice. What the hell has that got to do with anything? Does everybody here buy everything in cash? Do people here wish that there were no payment plans because, damn it sure sucks to pay for that car 36 times! I only wanted to pay once! It's not the number of times we are taxed that sucks, it is the total amount which we are taxed!

Here is another thought experiment. Suppose you need to buy something from me. I tell you I won't charge any interest and ask you if you would like to pay in advance, pay now, or pay it in the indefinate future? Why would it not be in your best interest and in the best interest of everybody who depends on you economically to choose the option to pay it some time in the indefinate future?

Here's another thought. When do you most need your money
A: when you are young and educating yourself and establishing savings for buying your first house.

B: when you are raising your children, providing for their basic needs and saving for their education.

C: when you are so old that you have finally sucumbed to your mortality, your children are providing for themselves and you have not seen fit to pass your accumulated wealth onto them.

It amazes me that so many here apparently choose C: as the time when they most need their money because they loathe the thought of defering some of their taxes to that time.


The arguments stated for going an all income tax route for paying the government bills with no estate tax whatsoever just do not add up! They most certainly are not advocating the best taxation option for our families! Therefore I feel compelled to post what I think might be the real incentive for opposition to the death tax even though I do not like it and even though it may (hopefully) turn out to be just a pessimistic strawman.

I suspect that as we live our lives painstakingly building an estate for ourselves, in the back of our minds we are keenly aware of our own mortality and the futility of the all consuming effort to aquire a large stockpile of material things which ultimately we cannot hope to take with us. We deal with this by unconsciously accepting that it is not futile at all because when we die our children will make use of this stockpile to better their lives and this constant handing down of wealth initiated by oneself will ensure an immortal legacy for the fruit of all our toil and care.

Well this is an irrational motivation! Remember we are not saving a dime of our hard earned money from the IRS by reverting to a pure income tax no death tax system of taxation! The IRS takes as much money in total either way! The healthy way to deal with our mortality and a desire to leave a legacy for the future is not to set up an apparatus that dumps our material goods on our children when we croak but rather to invest in their well being while we are still alive. Think of when your money is most likely to make a difference to your families well being. Is it when you are old or when they are just starting to get on their own financial feet?

I wish more people would recognize the wisdom of Andrew Carnegie's notion expressed in his essay "The Gospel of Wealth," that it was a disgrace for a man to die rich.

[Dinner]

Re: Re: Re: Ozzy

Originally posted by atomant
Come to africa, were people earn less than a dollar US per day. That is poverty. There was a picture on the front page of teh national newspaper of a guy skinning mice for his evening meal.

What part of Africa are you living in? Sure, poverity sucks put the African governments could greatly improve the quality of life for their people if they 1) dealt harshly with corruption 2) lowered trade barriers so that African states bought more goods amoungst each other 3) Protected private properity so that investors felt they could safely invest in businesses which create jobs 4) Spent less then they made so that the remainder could be invested in better public infastructure.

South Africa and Guinea have done some of this but I can't think of another African state that's even tried.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse


What? I'm no longer talking about sales tax; I'm talking about THE INCOME TAX I PAYED ON THE 15000 PRIOR TO PURCHASING THE CAR

You still haven't told me how you are valuing the assets.

[Ming]

As usual... most of the pro death tax people are making the assumption that everybody lives to a nice old age... and that even as we get older, our kids no longer need us... It very well could be that the money you leave your kids comes right at the time they need to put their children through college... or that their children are starting out in life, and their parents can't help them because they have just finished putting them through college... A family consists of more than just your kids.
The family continues beyond them to their children as well.

Tax my income... that I can plan for... I can budget... I can make the proper investment strategies... Death, I really can't plan for... that could be in many years, or the next day... If it comes at the wrong time, my family will be screwed because of bad timing.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by KrazyHorse
BC:

Why is it that if I inherit 15000$ and buy a car with it then I should be taxed on the 15000$ as earned income, whereas if I inherit the same car I am not taxed at all (assuming I use it for personal reasons until it is junk).

Tax systems always make different methods of acquisition beneficial. If you had been gifted the car before death, or had it sold to you for a low rate that barely avoids gift status, then you would have paid less tax than the fair market value at which you were deemed to receive it at.

Also, suppose the person who gave you the car had given it to you to use before death, that is, before selling it or gifting it. Should you be taxed from the moment you started using it and hence devalued it, or from the moment it officially became yours?

Inheriting cash is more beneficial as it has numerous to unlimited uses and is a liquid asset. Inheriting a car leaves you with a limited option. In that sense there is a justification for the former to be taxed more as there is more generic benefit and a demonstrable ability to pay.


Edit - grammar.

[Dinner]

Ming: A trust fund would handle this and I believe life insurance given to minor children isn't treated as part of an estate so those kids can be well looked after.

I see our country as being a meritocracy where people can rise based upon hard work and good decisions. Having a entitled upper class is contrary to the ideals of a meritocracy. In general taking a healthy slice of the largest people's estates to pay for worth while social programs mean society as a whole gets better and it prevents the wealthest from forming a perminent upper class. They'd still get a very healthy start in life but in order to reach the highest rung of the latter they'd still have to take risks and perform like the rest of us. Since we're only talking about 2% of the population this doesn't seem like a huge burden upon society and the people who accumulate wealth will still get to enjoy it for their lifetime.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Ming
The death tax is double taxiation... period. They have already taken their fair share. It's that simple.

For that matter so is capital gains (at least on dividends)as the corporations have paid (ususally) 36% corporate income tax on their profits.

[Ming]

I guess I just don't believe in your socialistic attitudes.
And fortunately, I don't live in a socialist country. I work hard for my family... and I have a real problem watching my family suffer just so my money can be handed over to lazy people who think it's their right to continue to be lazy.

And I love the ole... it's only 2% of society, so let's screw them attitude... They have rights too.

And I don't work hard just so I can enjoy my wealth... I work hard so that my children and their children will be better off... For some of us I, our children are the most important things in this world. Some might even argue that children are all that really matter in our short lives... So I season no reason why I should screw them just to help others.

I already pay big taxes... which I have no choice.
But I also give time and money to charities that fund programs that help people help themselves. Many people need help, and are willing to work hard. I want to help those people. I have very little interest in helping people who have no interest in helping themselves, and are lazy, and are just looking for a free ride.

If you want a socialist society... fine... I don't... I don't really see why the lazy should leach off the hard working.