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What will happen if China invades Taiwan?

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  • #61
    Originally posted by Mordoch
    Right now China lacks the amphibious lift capabilities to actually take Taiwan right now, and an invasion would fail even without US intervention for the immediate future. When looking at the 2010+ timeframe, a sucessfuly Chinese invasion of Taiwan suceeding without US intervention becomes fairly plausible. Taiwan needs to agreesively modernize and otherwise improve their military in order to prevent that possibility.

    I'll go ahead and post some points on this subject I made recently on another forum.

    The major reason China can't simply take over Taiwan is due to the fact that Taiwan enjoys the defensive advantage of having a large streach of ocean between them. With regards to amphibious landing operations against Taiwan, Taiwan's small size actually works against China. If Taiwan were the size of England, there would be alot of coastline for Taiwan's army and navy to protect and defend, but Taiwan's coastline means that China has little chance of simply sneaking by Taiwan's defenses and pulling off a landing.

    A Chinese invasion of Taiwan is even further complicated by the fact that the western coast of Taiwan is mostly covered by tidal mudflats that streach for miles off the coast and ensure that any transport crossing the area would get stuck, while much of the eastern part of Taiwan is cliffs rather than beaches. This leaves less than 20% of the coastline as viable for invasion and this is before you factor in that only a portion of these remaining beaches are going to be suitable for an amphibious landing. The Island of Taiwan itself has around 1,100 kilometers of coastline (its a little difficult to calculate exactly since the statistics I found included the outlying islands.) Since less than 20% of this coastline is usable for an invasion beachhead, this means that Taiwan's standing army of 200,000 could be deployed with over 910 soldier per every kilometer of Taiwan. If Taiwan's reserves are all mobilized, (which actually are 1.5 million troops) you are looking at more than 7730 soldier per every kilometer of usable invasion coastline.

    This number gets alot higher when you consider that the Taiwanese army is aware that the most viable invasion targets are the parts of Taiwan closest to Mainland China and the defense of the most attractive invasion beaches are also prioritized. The small size of Taiwan as an island means that it doesn't take defensive forces that long to react to amphibious landings and move to reinforce other units.

    As the following source notes ""China would take at least 48 hours, contingent on good weather, to make a round trip to fetch reinforcements, within which Taiwan would have successfully marshalled her troops to the battlefield."


    This delay before reinforcements arrive means that in order to hold a beachhead, China would realisticly need at least 100,000 troops to sucessfully land on the invasion target on Taiwan, (this is assuming a surprise attack with most of Taiwan's reserves not mobilized yet) and getting them there safely is not that easy.

    Taiwan's significantly sized navy and air force should certainly be able to launch some anti-shipping missiles and sink some transports early in the conflict. This is double whammy for China as not only are the troops and supplies on board lost, but that transport can't be used to provide future reinforcements.

    Besides its airforce and navy, Taiwan can also launch anti-shipping missiles from land bases, and since missiles such as the Hsiung-Feng II has roughly an 80 kilometer range (I've seen more recent evidence suggesting this range may have been extended even for the ordinary missiles of this type), they can start attacking the invading armada from quite a distance. Taiwan also has the M110A2 Self-Propelled Howitzer which has a range of more than 18 miles, as well as the LT-2000 Rocket lauched artillerly system which has a range of 28 miles and can be very lethal against the sort of tighly concentrated armada necessary to overwhelm a beach's defenses. Taiwan can also stick sea minefields in front of the possible invasion beaches as well as have its helicopter use their Hellfire anti-tank missiles to lethal effect against the invasion forces. The mines are a particular problem as they will either delay the invasion while Chinese forces clear them, leaving the transports exposed at sea and giving Taiwan more time to react, or China will lose a huge number of ships with the "Russian penal battalion method" of clearing mines. When the force get close, Taiwan plans to utilize their tank's main gun to target landing craft before they get too close to the beach, and anti-tank missiles such as the Javelin could be used in this role as well.

    The additional problem for China is that even if they accomplish the task of landing 100,000 men with the initial force, the transport force would have taken substancial attrition from Taiwan's defenses and many of the transports will need to carry additional supplies for the existing troops that had already landed. If China can't supply the beachhead with enough reinforcement, the invasion force would be overwhelmed by Taiwan's superior numbers that could be quickly deployed by this spot. If the invasion beachhead was destroyed, another fullscale invasion of Taiwan would not be a viable option for China for years untill all of the transport losses have been replaced. These are the sorts of problems China faces invading Taiwan.
    where did you find those stats on Taiwan's military strength? I admit I'm surprised they had so much. How can such a small island support such a large military. I take it they have mandatory service then.

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    • #62
      The Philippines is allied with Tiawan. If China attacks it will raise the ire of the Phil military, so they will never attack, they're scared...as well they should be.
      Long time member @ Apolyton
      Civilization player since the dawn of time

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      • #63
        Who the Hell would be afraid of the PI military?
        Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

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        • #64
          What the hell does Magnum PI have to do with this?
          Attached Files
          We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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          • #65
            Originally posted by Ted Striker
            What the hell does Magnum PI have to do with this?
            The PHILLIPPINES
            Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

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            • #66
              Originally posted by Dissident
              where did you find those stats on Taiwan's military strength? I admit I'm surprised they had so much. How can such a small island support such a large military. I take it they have mandatory service then.
              The info can be found in these two links.




              They do have manditory service. While they are a small island, they have a substancial population with their current numbers being over 22 million. When you consider they are in many ways in a similar position to Israel, and Taiwan has decent economy of its own, the fact they can support such a large military makes more sense.

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              • #67
                Magnum was in Hawaii

                Lonestar you're just another Higgins.
                We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                • #68
                  You're just another poseur who never served your country and worked with Filipinos who, consistantly, refer to the Phillippines as PI.


                  POSEUR!
                  Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

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                  • #69
                    I have never heard one Filipino refer to it as "PI"


                    Plus "serving" in the Navy doesn't count.

                    Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhh
                    We the people are the rightful masters of both Congress and the courts, not to overthrow the Constitution but to overthrow the men who pervert the Constitution. - Abraham Lincoln

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                    • #70
                      You laugh, but the Filipino Mafia will be at your house shortly to "Teach you a lesson."
                      Today, you are the waves of the Pacific, pushing ever eastward. You are the sequoias rising from the Sierra Nevada, defiant and enduring.

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                      • #71
                        Originally posted by Mordoch

                        The info can be found in these two links.




                        They do have manditory service. While they are a small island, they have a substancial population with their current numbers being over 22 million. When you consider they are in many ways in a similar position to Israel, and Taiwan has decent economy of its own, the fact they can support such a large military makes more sense.
                        Thanks for the info.

                        cool for them. Down with communism! All hail the mighty Tawainese!

                        They should be in a good position for a while then. China's economy is improving rapdidly. And they are putting more emphasis on their navy. But from what I've read in this thread, they need a whole lot more than that. Their air force and missile capability needs to be beefed up. Getting air dominance is the only hope they have. And they need accurate missiles and good recon to even think about an amphibious assault.

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                        • #72
                          Having aged Philipine F5's puttering around over one's troops, ready to drop randomly from the sky at any moment, is enough to strike fear into any army!

                          The Phil AF has to turn their F5's slowly, less they fall to pieces in flight. No sharp turns allowed!
                          Long time member @ Apolyton
                          Civilization player since the dawn of time

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                          • #73
                            Interesting thread with lots of solid information on the strategies and capabilities of the two sides. I can see how you got interested in this particular subject, Mordoch!

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                            • #74
                              Now if China had some airborne troops they would have some more options. Of course to use airborne it helps to have air superiority. They need to improve that. Just a straight beach invasion isn't going to work.

                              In fact, in light of this new info. I can't see much working without decimating the infrastructure of Taiwan, making an invasion worthless.

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                              • #75
                                Originally posted by Dissident
                                Now if China had some airborne troops they would have some more options. Of course to use airborne it helps to have air superiority. They need to improve that. Just a straight beach invasion isn't going to work.

                                In fact, in light of this new info. I can't see much working without decimating the infrastructure of Taiwan, making an invasion worthless.
                                Of course having sufficient airborne troops to make a difference is going to require one heck of alot of air transports. Besides the strong difficulties gaining total air superiority, the other big problem is a large number of anti-aircraft missile systems on a small island.

                                Transport planes are large planes with huge radar signatures that also move rather slowly, with the Chinese ILYUSHIN IL-76 CANDID having a speed of 560 miles per hour. The slow speed and lack of manuverability of these transports make them highly vulnerable to SAMs. Such a slow speed gives anti-aircraft missiles quite a bit of time to hit their targets. Air transports don't just need to worry about shorter ranged air defense systems such as the Avenger, but also longer ranged systems such as the I-Hawk. Each I-Hawk battery has 18 tripple launchers with a total of 54 missiles per battery.


                                The I-Hawk has a range of over 20 nautical miles, an over 300 pound warhead, and the ability for a bettery to fire a missile every 3 seconds. Taiwan currently has 20 I-Hawk batteries. http://www.globalsecurity.org/space/systems/hawk.htm

                                The PAC-2 200 missiles that are loaded onto the 6 launchers based near Tapei have a max range of 160 km when used in an anti-aircraft role. Taiwan currently has 3 batteries and is planning in the future to purchase an additional 3 PAC-3 Patriot Missile batteries while upgrading the existing ones to the PAC 3 standard. These missiles are capable of being used in an anti-aircraft role as well as their primary designation as an anti-missile defense system.

                                China also has to worry about air defense systems such as the Chaparral air defense system, and the Tien Kung I anti-aircraft missile with a range of 100 km. Taiwan also has the Sparrow enhanced Skyguard air defense system with a range of 11 miles. The Antelope Air defense system with a range of 18 kilometers is also likely to play a role. This is a recently deployed domesticly produced anti-air aircraft system armed with Tien Chien-I missiles. When you factor in the Tien Kung II missile with a max range range of 200 km, and the anti-aircraft guns Taiwan has, the question becomes whether any of the Chinese transports will even sucessfully reach their targets in Taiwan.

                                The basic problem is that Taiwan is a small island that doesn't give you that much room to drop troops. Given the trend is towards air defense missiles with longer and longer ranges, and I expect Taiwan to aquire plenty of additional anti-aircraft missile systems in the future, the odds of it becoming practical to move in troops by air don't look good. While China may be able to destroy some of these systems, destroying them all would certainly not be a simple task.

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