Re-establish the Ottoman Empire?

[Bereta_Eder]

well i guess that's why i've always got the blues

[Bereta_Eder]

you see the thing with make up teddy is knowing how to apply it

[Sikander]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


I do extensive modding for the game Europa-Universalis II specifically around the Ottoman Empire. For the last two and half years, I've been studying the Ottomans constantly. I'm such a nerd.

My favorite game of EU2 was playing the Ottos. I got to the Siberian Corridor ahead of the Russians and populated it with Turks all the way to the Pacific. I also grabbed large portions of Oceana and all of Australia, as well as a foothold on the west coast of North America, all of the coast of south Africa and some provinces in East Africa. I also grabbed the unafilliated portions of India as well as having one of the small southern states defect to me. This in addition to most of Arabia, half of Persia and all the Balkan provinces worthy of the effort up to Styrmark. Everything has been taken slowly but surely and converted to Sunni Islam so as to add rather than detract from out holy tech rate. Loads of fun, I wish my Turkish buddy played the game as I'm sure he'd get a kick out of it.

[Sir Og]

I am really surprised how fond of the Ottoman Epire some people are.
The Ottoman empire might have been more tolerant than the rest of medieval Europe at some point but they never moved out of the Middle Ages.
I am sure that everybody alse whose ancestors were subjects of the would have a really hard time finding the glimpses of tollerance amid all the atrocities commited by the Ottomans.
My home town for example was burnt by the turks in 1878 so it's really hard for me to appreciate their tolerance.

[Bereta_Eder]

They're clueless Sir Og.
That's why I make fun of them.

[dannubis]

my home town was burned by the germans in 1914. and i don't feel any hostility towards them

[Bereta_Eder]

because they've recognized they in fact did that. and the whole world too. they've also stopped doing it.

[dannubis]

i think they were still mad because what you guys did to troy ...
discussing arch nemesis relations is always fun

[Bereta_Eder]

they couldnt be angry they didnt existed back then.

but for some reason they were/are pissed off yeah

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by Sir Og
I am really surprised how fond of the Ottoman Epire some people are.
The Ottoman empire might have been more tolerant than the rest of medieval Europe at some point but they never moved out of the Middle Ages.
I am sure that everybody alse whose ancestors were subjects of the would have a really hard time finding the glimpses of tollerance amid all the atrocities commited by the Ottomans.
My home town for example was burnt by the turks in 1878 so it's really hard for me to appreciate their tolerance.

Originally posted by paiktis22 They're clueless Sir Og.

I guess the point molly and che are trying to make is not that Ottomans never had committed any crimes against their christian subjects but that when compared to their contemporaries they were definitely more tolerant.

If your standard of tolerance is a total absence of any killings or mistreatments, then surely there would be few empires to survive the demands of such a standard. Putting forward examples of Ottoman killings does not detract from the assertion of their comparative tolerance.

That being said, in the absence of such a historical perspective, to admit that Ottomans were more tolerant than the rest is an unspeakable horror to many in the Balkans, whose perspective of the Turks is more shaped by what happened during their wars of liberation than by what would have happened if they were ruled by Catholic kingdoms during all that time they spent under the Ottomans.

[Bereta_Eder]

besides that was internal affairs. trojans were also acheans and they wanted independece. where are you going re karamitros?
plus they still our chicks. unforgivable.

[Bereta_Eder]

Originally posted by Ancyrean
whose perspective of the Turks is more shaped by what happened during their wars of liberation

That's what your reformist books want you to believe Ancyrean.
(BTW che and mooly are lost cases and certaintly dont count in the equation).

And it isn't very bright either. How can our wars of liberation form our image of the turks?

i'm sure the turks formed our image of the turks (talking about old times and certaintly not just in the balkans).


anyway I see you still have a long way to go.

with friendly feelings I'm telling you this.

[Ancyrean]

Originally posted by paiktis22


That's what your reformist books want you to believe Ancyrean.
(BTW che and mooly are lost cases and certaintly dont count in the equation).

And it isn't very bright either. How can our wars of liberation form our image of the turks?

i'm sure the turks formed our image of the turks (talking about old times).


anyway I see you still have a long way to go.

with friendly feelings I'm telling you this.

Gia sou, paiktis

If you take the periods of wars of liberation as periods of intense enmity and mutual killings and atrocities, that experience leaves no room for recalling the times when people were actually thinking they were better off with the Turks than with any other major power of those times -(The point that they were better off comparatively is already put forward soundly enough here, that is, if one doesn't consider the possibility that the whole body of comparative Ottoman studies is a grand plot to glorify evil Ottomans ).

For example, if you can imagine a course of history in which Turks never ventured out of Central Asia and the Balkans came under a Catholic power of say, 14th, 15th, 16th centuries, would the Balkans remain an Orthodox land? Or would it fall prey to the bitter political and religious hostilities of Christendom ravaging Europe at the time and lose its Orthodox identity? (clue: 4th Crusade (1204), reconquista (1492), 30 years war (1618-1648))

[Sir Og]

@ Danubius: I don't feel hostile towards present day Turks.
But saying that Ottoman Empire was the pinnacle of tollerance in Europe just because for a short period of time there were even worse places on the continent is ridiculous.

[Bereta_Eder]

Merhaba Ancyrean

What I'm saying is:
for example we fought the Bulgarians. Brutally. Are there bad feelings between us? No.

We were occupied by the Germans. hundrends of thousands died in that war. Are there bad feelings towards them? No.

You were doing something seriosuly wrong and exceptionally brutal and inhumane to have such a bad image not only in the balkan peoples but also worldwide.

Why this image was made is not folklore but real suffering. I refer you to the lenghty article I posted for this suffering.

I think all you do is simply cover your eyes