Is the EU going to dissolve to a simple free trade area?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor
, we have to cope with competition policies and trade policies that are completely opposite to our ways, we are dismantling our traditional public services and welfare,

But wouldnt you have to do that even if you werent in the EU, to compete in the global marketplace? It may be the policy of your party not to compete in the global marketplace, but isnt it likely that the rest of France would try to, EU or no EU?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
if you start with the assumption that y'all are all citizens of one state, and therefore you should all be equal as citizens, then Finns are overrepresented. If you start with the assumption that the EU is an organization of sovereign states, than Finland may underrepresented compared to a sovereign state like France.

I start with the assumption that the Council (where governments haggle), is the place where countries are more or less equal.
And I start with the assumption that the Parliament (where representatives vote on an ideological basis) is the place where the citizens should be more or less equal.

I'm not having too strong feelings about the seats in the Parliament. I just wanted to show, through something Pekka and I both experienced very recently, that the EU is certainly not an entity that is meant to satisfy France. Chirac's arrogance may make it sound like it, but we have done many, many concessions.
And that we are far less powerful than the anti-Europeans want to believe.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
But wouldnt you have to do that even if you werent in the EU, to compete in the global marketplace? It may be the policy of your party not to compete in the global marketplace, but isnt it likely that the rest of France would try to, EU or no EU?

Many don't want the opening to every market to competition. The telecom sector wasn't too difficult a pill to swallow, but the energy sector (currently in the works) is far more tricky. The crap will hit the fan when the rail sector will be opened to competition, because nobody in France wants the nightmare from Britain.

During these elections, most pro-European parties, including the right-wing ones, used the examples of Airbus and Ariane as propaganda means to bring sympathy toward Europe. These industrial policies are something we are strongly attached to, and they're unrelated to the EU (Airbus and Ariane are intergovernmental projects), and they are made impossible by EU principles of competition.

Right waing parties in these elections unanimously said they were against the outsourcing to Eastern Europe. However, with the current principles, any company that wishes to outsource and put many workers on the dole, can. Outsourcing is indeed something the French in their huge majority disagree with.

These are only the current issues dealing with the competition aspect of the EU. And this is something where the French are completely and utterly sodomized, mostly by the English, who are by far the most free-market ones.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Right waing parties in these elections unanimously said they were against the outsourcing to Eastern Europe. However, with the current principles, any company that wishes to outsource and put many workers on the dole, can. Outsourcing is indeed something the French in their huge majority disagree with.

These are only the current issues dealing with the competition aspect of the EU. And this is something where the French are completely and utterly sodomized, mostly by the English, who are by far the most free-market ones.

1. Assume no EU. In that case Britain and Germany can outsource. US can. French companies cant. This will put them at a competitive disadvantage. Wont the pressure to allow them to be EXTREME, given that in this situation they compete with US, Germany, Britain in all world markets?

2. Would not the new Eastern European members have issues if companies were not allowed to outsource to Eastern Europe? How is this UK's fault?

[Pekka]

At least the big ones get treated with respect. Come again when they don't send you the memo, then we talk more about the atmosphere in EU. Of course France doesn't get everything going in their way. I just hoped we could get at least something going on our way, at least something.

So I guess we should just bite our tongues because there are more people living in Paris than our whole country? Makes perfect sense, we're sorry we opened our mouth we will retreat back to our caves. Just let us know where we send the checks.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
1. Assume no EU. In that case Britain and Germany can outsource. US can. French companies cant. This will put them at a competitive disadvantage. Wont the pressure to allow them to be EXTREME, given that in this situation they compete with US, Germany, Britain in all world markets?

I am not in this thread to discuss how justified these policies are* What I meant in my post, is that the French people are losing something dear in the EU, that our leaders could not afford to defend..

2. Would not the new Eastern European members have issues if companies were not allowed to outsource to Eastern Europe? How is this UK's fault?

Outsourcing in Eastern Europe is not UK's fault. It belongs to the core of the European construction, with the free flow of capital, goods, and people. However, it is also one circumstance where France loses something to the EU.
If we ruled with an iron first like Pekka and most of our non-French anti Europeans seem to believe, you bet outsourcing to Eastern Europe wouldn't be easy.

Point is: Even we, the iron fisted French, are making concessions, and very difficult ones, to the EU. Even we have to suffer from decisions that don't match our values.

There are many other bones of contention:
- we can't lower our sales taxes on restaurants, the Germans oppose it adamantly
- some of our traditional diaries and cheeses are threatened by EU health regulations
- at this very moment, there is a power struggle about the future president of the EU Commission (who'll replace Prodi). France-Germany's candidate is out, as is UK-EPP's candidate. They are currently looking for a consensual fifth or sixth choice
- We are still suffering from this fricking stability pact we all hate.

Of course this kind of things could have been sorted out if we had picked the right battles at the council, and if we didn't lose our bargaining power to things as useful as this:
- we obtained to keep the CAP. The most important reforms to the CAP concern mediterranean agriculture, and not us. In order to keep the cash flow steady for French farmers, Eastern Europe farmers (far poorer and more numerous) will have 4 times less money from the CAP.

- we obtained to put former pres Giscard d'Estaing at the helm of the constitutional convention. Giscard wanted his name in history books, and Chirac wanted to get rid of a potential annoyer in the tight presidential election of 2002.

- we obtained to put Jean Claude Trichet at the head of the ECB (after a spectacular bargaining when first ECB boss Wim Duisenberg was first chosen: Duisenberg was to retire at mid-term for "health reasons" to leave room for Trichet ).
I still wonder what France derived from this, given that the ECB must strictly follow aims, that were never changed, and Trichet is a zeamlot. I guess Chirac derived a good stroke on his ego, and probably placed a friend in a high place.

[Pekka]

I'm not anti europe. I'm anti current policies.

[Solly]

"We are still suffering from this fricking stability pact we all hate."

It is bloody stupid.

But since it was put it on Germany's request, they had better stick to it this time around. It's not a clever rule but it is better than no rule.

Just makes me wonder what would have happened if a smaller country had broken it alone..

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Pekka
At least the big ones get treated with respect. Come again when they don't send you the memo, then we talk more about the atmosphere in EU.

This is indeed a problem, and I am very surprised such blunder happened with Ireland at the presidence of the EU. Normally, the Irish make a point of treating every country with respect.

Of course France doesn't get everything going in their way. I just hoped we could get at least something going on our way, at least something.

You mean, like Nokia selling its products across all Europe, without fearing any protectionism, or any favoritism toward a local brand?
I don't know much about Finland, but I would hardly be surprised if you have kept some hunting traditions that are completely opposed to EU ecological policies. This is on top of my head, I'm sure you Pekka could come up with more exmaples of things going your way.

And the Nokia one is a really, really big one. Never would have Finland benefited from so much wealth if it wasn't for the EU.

So I guess we should just bite our tongues because there are more people living in Paris than our whole country?

No, you should express yourselves, just like the Parisians should.
And I'm the first to agree there shouldn't be a given number of Parisian seats at the EP, but a (greater) number of French seats instead. Unfortunately, both our major parties support this crap, because it overrepresents them over small parties.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Park Avenue
Just makes me wonder what would have happened if a smaller country had broken it alone..

It happened just a few years before France and Germany suffered. I think it was the Portuguese who were having trouble.

Useless to say, the Germans and the French (already led by Chirac, this wonderful epitome of honesty and consistency) told the small one to **** off.

[Solly]

Yep, sure Spiffor.

[Spiffor]

This kind of pure crap produced by individual governments looking for their petty interests is the main reason why we need Demcoracy at EU level.

With a democratic EU, we would have enforced or repelled the stability pact, depending on the wishes of the European people, rather than on the balance of power between individual governments.

[Pekka]

Spiffor, Nokia has sold well with or without EU. Inside Europe, what local brands?

What hunting traditions?
EU did try to ban 'smoke sauna' though. It's nice to see EU really accepts some of the things we do here and doesn't drive the ban so hard. It's good that they try though, it's their business after all. NOT.

Nokia benefitted from EU in huge ways? How? Actual real evidence would be in order here. Hard statistics please.
And even if it did even for 1 percentage, it really doesn't make the cake, so there is one company that ALLEGEDLY has benefitted from EU. Big deal. And I doubt it did anything anyway. Euro markets are not that important anymore to Nokia anyway.

I don't know the number of French seats in the house. Maybe they should get more, I don't know. And I don't even care as long as we don't get a say in things. A say that matters that is.

[Pekka]

Spiffor, Nokia has sold well with or without EU. Inside Europe, what local brands?

What hunting traditions?
EU did try to ban 'smoke sauna' though. It's nice to see EU really accepts some of the things we do here and doesn't drive the ban so hard. It's good that they try though, it's their business after all. NOT.

Nokia benefitted from EU in huge ways? How? Actual real evidence would be in order here. Hard statistics please.
And even if it did even for 1 percentage, it really doesn't make the cake, so there is one company that ALLEGEDLY has benefitted from EU. Big deal. And I doubt it did anything anyway. Euro markets are not that important anymore to Nokia anyway.

I don't know the number of French seats in the house. Maybe they should get more, I don't know. And I don't even care as long as we don't get a say in things. A say that matters that is.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I am not in this thread to discuss how justified these policies are* What I meant in my post, is that the French people are losing something dear in the EU, that our leaders could not afford to defend..

My point is, if the free market policies you dislike are ones France would have had to adopt anyway, EU or no EU, then they ARE NOT concessions to the EU. Now it may be that France hasnt managed to get an EU that enables it to escape from ALL the free market policies that global competition would have imposed on her, but that neither proves that France sacrificed for the EU, nor that France doesnt dominate the EU.

and i fail to see how in a common market with free movement across borders, such the EU was even back when it was the EEC, you could stop outsourcing. Again to imagine an EU that had free labor flows across borders, but no outsourcing, is imagining a French fantasy.