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Discussion on the Goblet of Fire, Severus Snape

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  • I'm with mono and Snowfire on this one, Luna isn't nearly as loony as she might appear. She's certainly a very unusual girl, but I think there are still a revelation or three to come about her before the series is finished. It's a definite possibility that she could end up with Harry.

    And I also think the coolest way for the story to end would be for Harry to have to sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort. It's almost a cliched ending, but I think it'd be really powerful in this case, especially since so many Potter fans are kids who won't have read many stories that didn't end happily-ever-after.
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    • And I also think the coolest way for the story to end would be for Harry to have to sacrifice himself to kill Voldemort. It's almost a cliched ending, but I think it'd be really powerful in this case, especially since so many Potter fans are kids who won't have read many stories that didn't end happily-ever-after.


      A good ending. However, if Dumledore's interpretation of the prophecy is correct (I bet it is), one of them will kill the other. And, therefore, one of them will live.

      Actually... that means that both Harry and Voldemort are pretty much invulnerable to anyting else, right? Harry can't die, for instance, in the Forbidden Forest or be killed by one of death eaters, while Voldemort can't be killed by Dumbledore... so that the prophecy be fulfilled?

      Also, remember how at the end of OOTP Dumbledore tells Voldemort that there are worse things than death that can happen. Any idea what he was referring to? I'm sure that it's a pretty important statement...
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      • However, if Dumledore's interpretation of the prophecy is correct (I bet it is), one of them will kill the other. And, therefore, one of them will live.


        That doesn't mean that they can't be killed AFTER the prophecy is fulfilled. I mean if Harry kills Voldemort, the prophecy is over, but then he can always be killed right after, by say, Lucius Malfoy.
        “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
        - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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        • Or Snape.
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          • Snape is a good guy .
            “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
            - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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            • Until the chance to cast aside both his master Voldemort and Potter and become the ruler of the wizarding world comes along, that is...
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              • Even then, he's a good guy.
                “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                  I think you guys are forgetting the best reason why Snape might be working for Voldemort, ie. it would make for one hell of a story. Don't let logic convince you that a great plot twist is unthinkable. I'm sure Rowling isn't...


                  Yes, but a main theme in Rowling's books is that we can be redeemed by the choices we make in life. Snape is prime example of someone who was on the wrong side, but through his choices has come to the good side. It shows that people can change and can come to the light. I don't think she'd have Snape turn back again.

                  I actually think that Snape will die trying to save Harry's life in some fashion. It fits with the whole story of Harry reexamining Snape and his motivations.
                  wonder of wonders - a key point of HP lore where I completely agree with Imran. Im not sure if Snape will in fact die, but I agreee about the main theme, and im sure that what happens with Snape and Harry will reflect that theme.
                  "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                  • Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
                    Luna, because of her parental situation, doesn't have that 'family' Harry desires.
                    Hmm. Thats why i think it would be disappointing for Harry to end up with Ginny. One of the main themes of books 3,4,5 has been Harry looking to Sirius as a substitute for his dead parents. One of the interesting things about book 5, is the beginning of a more realistic look at Sirius by Harry - Harry learns both that Sirius (as well as James) were jerks at school, and he also gets several hints that Sirius was looking at him (Harry) as a substitute for James, and was disappointed when Harry reacted differently from James - as Harry MUST do, to establish himself as own person. He can keep James inside him (as was emphasized in POA) but he cant BE James. As he wrestles further with the death of Sirius, in book 6, I would hope he comes to the realization that he CANNOT find substitutes for his parents in other adults - he has to find his strength in himself. He can have a warm and loving and relationship with Arthur and Molly, but they will never substitute for Lily and James. To hook up with Ginny in an effort to join the more fully in the Weasley family would be a step back from that. I dont know what JKR will do, but I hope she doesnt do that.
                    "A person cannot approach the divine by reaching beyond the human. To become human, is what this individual person, has been created for.” Martin Buber

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                    • Excellent point, lotm. I think you're absolutely correct, especially in the analysis of the evolution of the relationship between Harry and Sirius in OotP.

                      EDIT: Perhaps I'm revealing a fetish, but what do you folks think of Harry developing a relationship with an attractive young teacher, as opposed to the usual suspects (Ginny, Hermione, Cho, Luna)? Probably something Rowling would not want to explore given the books' popularity with children, but I think the power dynamics would be interesting.

                      If anyone (and I hope there really isn't a serious relationship, just frustration), I hope it is someone new. None of the existing female characters would feel right to me.
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                      • defined by our choices

                        I also see a theme about the struggle against class based societies. The awareness level of such things seems much higher in the UK than in the US. Plus, I think it makes sense based upon the life of the author.
                        “It is no use trying to 'see through' first principles. If you see through everything, then everything is transparent. But a wholly transparent world is an invisible world. To 'see through' all things is the same as not to see.”

                        ― C.S. Lewis, The Abolition of Man

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                        • I actually think that Snape will die trying to save Harry's life in some fashion. It fits with the whole story of Harry reexamining Snape and his motivations.
                          Completely and totally agreed, because of what Monolith said...

                          I suspect that Snape may even become the Defense Against the Dark Arts teacher next year. Because, in order for Harry to become an Auror, he has to take potions. His best OWL will probably not be enough to get into Snape's NEWT class, so a new potions professor will be brought in who will allow Harry into the upper level potions class.
                          Hence, Snape becomes the latest victim of the Dark Arts curse when he sacrifices himself for Harry at
                          the end of Book 6.

                          I lean towards Luna on the love triangle issue. There's a reason only Luna was able to affect Harry's feelings in the wake of the climax of Phoenix... and SnowFire's observation about Luna's opinion of Harry's fame pretty much cinches it for me.

                          For the record...

                          However, if Dumledore's interpretation of the prophecy is correct (I bet it is), one of them will kill the other. And, therefore, one of them will live.
                          I had to gamble on who lives, I'd bet the farm on Harry. NO WAY Voldemort survives.

                          And don't forget Trelawney's other prophecy... the one she made to Harry in Azkaban, and the one we have yet to see a complete resolution to. Remember what Dumbledore said... Pettigrew is in Harry's debt, and still is (since we have no evidence he helped Harry escape from the Death Eaters in Goblet. If anyone is going to pull a Darth Vader-like turn, it's PETTIGREW, not Snape.
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                          • Originally posted by Solver
                            So, Rawling clearly is going to use that room I mentioned in previous post.
                            She already did use it.
                            Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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                            • I would hope he comes to the realization that he CANNOT find substitutes for his parents in other adults - he has to find his strength in himself.


                              But even in finding strength in himself, he can find a true family. And OotP's big lesson was Harry learning that he can't/shouldn't do everything by himself. When the DADA group of Ginny/Neville/Luna forced Harry to take them seriously and let them come along, Harry realized it wasn't like before, where it was just him. Harry knows he needs help from others and he can't do it by himself (or just simply with Ron and Hermione).

                              I don't think the books are going for Harry the individual, but Harry realizing that he is part of the group, and while he may be the most gifted member, he can't do it alone.
                              “I give you a new commandment, that you love one another. Just as I have loved you, you also should love one another. By this everyone will know that you are my disciples, if you have love for one another.”
                              - John 13:34-35 (NRSV)

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                              • Originally posted by GhengisFarb

                                Yeah, he's obviously registered Democrat........
                                Oh yeah?


                                Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

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