The Ice Age and the Fertile Crescent.

[Hueij]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Hueij, can you find links to the hieroglyphs for the lion and the sphinx? I'd like to see if the hieroglyph on the inventory stela is that of a lion or a sphinx (or if they shared the same hieroglyph), it seems to me there is no house of the lion at Giza but I suspect there is a house of the sphinx (given we find the sphinx there). And please explain why Khufu "discovered" a temple of Isis at Giza if the site was not already a sacred place in use, if not in his time, then in what was already ancient history in his day.

I have to get back to you this evening Dutch time. Work and things...

I'll try to make a scan of the "rw (lion)" glyph from Gardiner's Middle Egyptian Grammar with it's explanation. But I must warn you, Gardiner was a real Egyptologist

Meanwhile, thanks for having me browsing the web on this subject last night. I had a lot of laughs, never knew there were taht many crackpots out there...

[Berzerker]

Sava -

I think we are some sort of alien/primate hybrid. See, alien refugees came to Earth a long time ago... but they had trouble adapting to Earth's environment, so the only way for the species to survive was to use primate DNA to make a hybrid. Their advanced brain, among other things, was integrated into the primate DNA which is how humans came about. We're the product of aliens and dirty apes.

Strangely enough, both the Sumerians/Babylonians and Zulu have myths about the creation of mankind that are very much in that ballpark. The Sumerians believed we were created by a "serpent" God and his sister (?) to relieve the Gods of their work and one myth describes how this serpent deity found a creature roaming the "abzu" he deemed appropriate for "binding" the image of the Gods upon to make a primitive creature that could follow orders and work. The Zulu believe there was a time when "the artifical ones" would go to war with "the apemen" to appease or at the behest of the gods.

Hueij -

I'll try to make a scan of the "rw (lion)" glyph from Gardiner's Middle Egyptian Grammar with it's explanation. But I must warn you, Gardiner was a real Egyptologist

So was the guy who found the inventory stela Be sure to link or post both the lion and sphinx glyph, thx.
Also, if you could, quote Gardiner's explanation as to exactly what "hurun" means within the context of the inventory stela. If that's too much trouble, no biggie.

Meanwhile, thanks for having me browsing the web on this subject last night. I had a lot of laughs, never knew there were taht many crackpots out there...

While you're looking about for those glyphs, be sure to refute the quote you indicted as BS. That'll be quite an achievement...

[Dinner]

The last ice age was fairly warm as ice ages go and ice never got any where near coving most of the plant.

[Hueij]

For Berzerker: Gardiner's entry for the lion glyph. He doesn't have a "sphinx" glyph so it must have been very rarely used in Old and Middle Egyptian. However I found "sphinx" glyphs in Budge.

As you can see, the lion on the stele is nothing more than phonetic "rw"

Source: Sir Alan Gardiner, Egyptian Grammar. Third edition, revised, 1988. ISBN 0 900416 35 1. Copyright Griffith Institute Oxford.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

Originally posted by Datajack Franit
New researches suggest that the island of Crete was destroyed by a huge storm probably caused by a meteorite fallen into the Mediterranean Sea, and that could be the flood the scriptures are talking about

I'd consider the eruption of Thira to be a likelier suspect for the destruction of Crete.

[Hueij]

Next: the sphinx glyph.

Source: E.A Wallace Budge, An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary Vol 2, 1920, reprinted by Dover, 1978. ISBN 0 486 23616 1

[Hueij]

And next: the only pic I could find of the Inventory Stele. I have no clue if it is a forgery or not but if these signs are correct than it than it cannot be a copy of a 4th dynasty original. The second sign in the second line, the one above the water glyph is a phonetic "m". This sign was not used before the end of Dyn 18.

The whole phrase "gm.n-f (ibis m water snake)" that is suggestively translated as "he discovered" can also mean "he found" or even "he arrived at."

Now I haven't seen this stele but what I read about it is that it shows some gods together that were never ever depicted together before, let alone in the 4th dynasty.

Aside from all this there are some other minor mistakes in the given translation, but soit...

Edit: found one typo, there are probably more...

[Hueij]

But let's say the stele is real and from the Sait Period. Already in the Middle Kingdom Gizeh and Chufu were part of a mythical past around which many stories were woven. Should we take "Chufu and the Magician" literally?

Suppose 2000 years from now someone finds the sole surviving copy of "Arthur, the Once and Future King." I can already imagine the ridiculous theories that will be thrown around. The Bauvals, Wests and Hancocks of the future will be having a field day. (And filling their pockets of course...)

[Hueij]

Just found something else. A critique of Hancock's Fingerprints of the Gods.

[q]2. The text of the Inventory Stela "clearly indicated that both the Great Sphinx and the Great Pyramid ... were already in existence long before Khufu came to the throne" (p. 303).

[b]No. The crucial passage of the text runs as follows: "The living Horus Medjedu (= Horus-name of Khufu), the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Khufu, given life. He found the precinct of Isis, mistress of the pyramid, next to the precinct of Hauron, to the north-west of the precinct of Osiris lord of Rostau. He built his pyramid next to the temple of this goddess (and) he (also) built the pyramid of Princess Henutsen next to this temple".

The purpose of this tendentious text, probably written early in the 26th Dynasty, around 600 BC (palaeography, orthography, stela-type, Hauron), was to emphasize the antiquity of the cult of Isis by claiming that it was older than the construction of the pyramids. In this context, the epithet "mistress of the pyramid" is anachronistic and does not imply that the Great Pyramid was associated with Isis, and the stela does not suggest in any way that Khufu was buried in one of the subsidiary pyramids./b]

http://www.hallofmaat.com/maat/article.php?sid=27&page=1

[Al B. Sure!]

i have a question for the 'older history' people... if the sphinx was built during the ice age and there was a significant and advanced civilization then, why was the rest of the world so comparatively uncivilized, living as hunter gatherers everywhere?

civilization requires contact and a trade of commodities and ideas. Civilization bursted out after the last ice age in Egypt, Levant, Syria, Asia Minor, Sumeria, India, and southern china roughly simultaneously. overnight in the grand scale, civilizations appeared all over the stretch from Egypt to China. Indian goods have been found in Ur... blue-eyed blonde europeans in west china... civilization appeared incredibly suddenly in Crete, coinciding with the conquest of the Nile Delta by Menes (refugees fled to Crete)...

similiarities between civilizations (the cult of the bull in both Crete and the Nile delta for example) were the result of very much contact between civilizations long before archaeoloists had thought. Humans were, simply put, getting around as far back as the 9th milenia BC... i think this is a better explanation for shared histories, etc. than the Atlantean theory.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
i have a question for the 'older history' people... if the sphinx was built during the ice age and there was a significant and advanced civilization then, why was the rest of the world so comparatively uncivilized, living as hunter gatherers everywhere?

civilization requires contact and a trade of commodities and ideas. Civilization bursted out after the last ice age in Egypt, Levant, Syria, Asia Minor, Sumeria, India, and southern china roughly simultaneously. overnight in the grand scale, civilizations appeared all over the stretch from Egypt to China. Indian goods have been found in Ur... blue-eyed blonde europeans in west china... civilization appeared incredibly suddenly in Crete, coinciding with the conquest of the Nile Delta by Menes (refugees fled to Crete)...

similiarities between civilizations (the cult of the bull in both Crete and the Nile delta for example) were the result of very much contact between civilizations long before archaeoloists had thought. Humans were, simply put, getting around as far back as the 9th milenia BC... i think this is a better explanation for shared histories, etc. than the Atlantean theory.

Between 9500 BCE and 9000 BCE than natual disater happen in the solar system which change the ordit of earth, venus and mar. The earth orginate have than year which was 360 day long than the suddern change in orbit caught distate change on earth also which cause that advange cival to collsp. When it ended the Earth year was 365.25.... . days long.

[Al B. Sure!]

charlesBhoff:

huh? what the hell does that have to do with anything?

i'm saying civilizations do not exist in a vacuum... if one area of the world has an advanced civilization, other areas will also have civilization due to contact. how could it be that Atlantis existed in a vacuum as the only civilization on earth amid incredibly primitive huntergatherers?

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
charlesBhoff:

huh? what the hell does that have to do with anything?

i'm saying civilizations do not exist in a vacuum... if one area of the world has an advanced civilization, other areas will also have civilization due to contact. how could it be that Atlantis existed in a vacuum as the only civilization on earth amid incredibly primitive huntergatherers?

Simple all ancient cival have than 360 days ayear solar, sudden it change to 365.25... days ayear solar cal. Than change like this can cause sudden climate change on earth. Myth in Taith in the South Pacific once told of than time long ago when they where freezeing from ice sudden appearing there.

[Al B. Sure!]

what?

[Berzerker]

Hueij - if this helps:

http://www.touregypt.net/godsofegypt/haurun.htm

Haurun is not only a region in Syria, i.e., Canaan, but a Canaanite God (possibly doubling as a God in both cultures with different names), so it is interesting that Haurun or Hurun appears on the stela. But Hurun was the Canaanite name for the Sphinx, not a lion. So how come the Sphinx and a temple to Isis were in existence at Giza before Khufu built his pyramid? This must be why the inventory stela was eventually dismissed since it conflicted with the notion that Khufu's son made the sphinx. As for Bauval, West, and Hancock, they are irrelevant wrt the stela...

If we take your argument as valid, that because the pyramid age had long passed by the time of the stela, then virtually every text must be treated similarily unless the text was contemporaneous with the events described in the text. Obviously events can be written about long after the fact and viewed with some skepticism - like the Bible - but Giza had to have some significance before Khufu showed up to build and this stela offers a motive - the temple of Isis and the house of Haurun were already there and that means the Sphinx was already there, true?

While I'm a fan of all 3 of these authors you dislike, I find Bauval's work on the astronomical connections to the pyramid region fascinating and have yet to see a critique refuting his work. Have you? Hancock has apparently adopted Bauval's work and West had the geologic survey of the Sphinx done and I haven't seen a convincing refutation of that either, so why should we just assume these 3 men are crackpots or frauds based on your conclusions or Egyptologists who are largely ignoring their work? Lumping these men together with von Daniken is uncalled for, I believe both West and Hancock have since dismissed the finds off Japan as a quirk of nature. Does that make them frauds? No, it makes them honest...

As for Isis and the pyramid, the text implies that Khufu built the Great Pyramid but we can't be sure since there are several in the complex. But assuming he did, Isis was the mistress of the pyramid whether that means the Giza pyramids or allegedly older pyramids built by Sneferu. The interpretation that the stela meant to create for Isis an older connection to the pyramids is just speculation and flies in the face of the antiquity of the Osiris/Isis myth.