The Ice Age and the Fertile Crescent.

[Hueij]

He, thanks for pointing to that site I didn't know that one, but it looks good. Thanks.

[Solomwi]

Sounds like the Civ situation of circumnavigating your own continent before even discovering the other, Boris.

I'm not saying they didn't sail across the south Atlantic, or even that I'd be surprised to find out they did, just that the open ocean aspect, even given the ancient attention to stars and constellations, makes that voyage more of a momentous feat than sailing around Africa, which could be done within sight of land.

[Xeones]

I'm with Kucinich. Guns, Germs, and Steel by Jared Diamond absolutely answers this question.



Oh, and ...... Religion is stupid. Don't expect to make any sense of your answers if you leave fairy tales open as evidence... sheesh.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
can someone tell me if charlesbhoff is a joke or not? he spews out this weird information as responses to me that have nothing to do with what i was saying... i say there was contact between civilizations of the bronze age and he starts talking about the asteriod belt... is he just playing with me?

I was explaining that than advange civ exist which didnot want to forceful civ drown less advange tribe throat like we do today. Israel forceful make desert nomad live in houses which they didnot want to live. The Saudic government allow then to live the life stye they want to live. In that aspect I think the Saudic are more democrate than Israel is.

[germanos]

I'm afraid Albert will not really find that an adequate answer to his question, Charles

[Solomwi]

God help me, my mind has gotten adept at translating Hoffian into English as I read.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
can you please post a link then?

Try this one:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/maat/read.php?f=1&i=147003&t=146835

CharlesBHoff thinks Saudi Arabia is more democratic than Israel because of Israel's supposed poor treatment of nomads?

If you want weird science and strange beliefs, Charly Farly's your man.

Everything bad is Judaeo-Christian, everything good is Islamic or in the Koran. Way to go, Charly, you've really convinced me.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by Solomwi
God help me, my mind has gotten adept at translating Hoffian into English as I read.

European and America civ forced normad to live than settle life style they donot want to live. We forced the America Indian to lived than settle lifesytle. Than ancient very adva civ allow the normad triberal to live the life style they want to live. The desert normad in the middle east live that life style for thousand of year without prob. Along come Euporean saying we cannot have people liveing this type of lifestyle it so priminate and backward we must force these people to change they life style.

[CharlesBHoff]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Try this one:

http://www.hallofmaat.com/maat/read.php?f=1&i=147003&t=146835

CharlesBHoff thinks Saudi Arabia is more democratic than Israel because of Israel's supposed poor treatment of nomads?

If you want weird science and strange beliefs, Charly Farly's your man.

Everything bad is Judaeo-Christian, everything good is Islamic or in the Koran. Way to go, Charly, you've really convinced me.

Those desert nomad where liveing that life style for many thousand of year and who are we to tell then you cannot live that life style. The saudic have house ready for then it they want to settle drown but they willnot be force to settle drown.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by CharlesBHoff


The saudic have house ready for then it they want to settle drown but they willnot be force to settle drown.

Presumably when they want to 'settle drown' the House of Saud will part the Red Sea for 'em, eh, Charly Farly?

Anyway, I notice by its astonishing absence any evidence of this cruel and unjust treatment of these peaceable desert nomads by the Zionist Oppressor State of Israel, fount of all evil. Feel free to tell us (with links, or quotes) just what action the Zionist murderers are taking against these lovely tribal wanderers.

By the by, in case you hadn't noticed, conflict between settled agriculturalists and nomads has been going on since probably before even the Aryan invasions of India and the Near East, and not all Native Americans were nomadic, but don't let those unfortunate little facts get in the way about telling us what a wonderful caring, sharing place, Saudi 'lop your hand off' Arabia is.

I just don't understand what you're still doing in the godless Zionist loving West when you have such perfect states in the Muslim world to emigrate to.

[JimmyCracksCorn]

Its generally accepted that "civilization" first began around 3,000 BCE in the middle east, between the Tigris and the Euphretes rivers (the Sumerians). Civilization is defined as a state organized society with ranked social order, and a relatively unified cultural code centered around a dense urban core.

The process of state formation in North and South America is still only partially understood, but its generally accepted that it occured much later than in the Old World, and this is what the archaeological record supports.

This is the party line for anthropologists, and there's not really any solid evidence to refute it.

[Berzerker]

Hueij, are you going to start answering my questions instead of throwing around insults? I'd like for you to start by explaining what in that quote you originally "responded" to was "BS"? Then you can explain why you think Hurun/Haurun was a lion and not a "god". I posted a link showing that Haurun was a Canaanite deity if not an Egyptian deity as well, and that it was linked to the Sphinx, not a lion. Then you can explain why Khufu discovered the House of Isis and the House of Haurun at Giza before building his pyramid. Telling me this is all BS because of Bauval, Hancock and West is not an explanation, they did not create the inventory stela...

[Hueij]

This is what I dug up from the archives from the EEF last night. Be warned though, it is looong and probably boring, since it is a discussion based on science, not on sensational conjecture. Here goes...



===
===

From: "Greg Reeder"
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 11:35 AM
Subject: EEF: The Inventory Stela?



I am looking for a hieroglyphic transcription and good photographs of the
Inventory Stela found by Mariette in 1858 in a 21 Dynasty temple of Isis
built into the pyramid temple of Henutsen daughter of Khufu. This stela is
one of the most abused and misunderstood documents from ancient Egypt. It
has been used by "alternative" authors to claim that the Sphinx is older
that Khufu and on the other hand has been labeled a forgery and pious fraud
by some orthodox Egyptologists. A recent book:
Sphinx, by Christiane Zivie-Coche, translated by David Lorton, Cornell
2002 (see pages 83-90) places the stela in its proper historical milieu as
a commemorative document. I offer a few quotes from Professor Zivie-Coche's
excellent book.

"THE STELA OF THE DAUGHTER OF CHEOPS
...its systematic analysis, especially if we confront the serious
difficulties caused by lacunae and weathering in the last part of the text,
enables us to discover the mine of information it contains, on the
historical level as well as the geographical and religious.....

....
A first point catches our attention , if only because of its rarity: the
titulary of Cheops. The style of the piece and the deities chosen
...illustrate ...it could not [have been an ] ...Old Kingdom original as
certain scholars attempted to affirm just after it was discovered. There was
also talk of a copy of an authentic text of that early period, piously
reproduced by distant successors: ......There is only the name of Cheops ,
and the constructions that are mentioned are attributed to him...After
renouncing the fabricated authenticity of the document , scholars went to
the opposite extreme, calling it an ostensibly false work intended to
misrepresent reality and to deceive those who could read it....to employ
terms like falsification and doctoring is to plaster a modern notions onto a
concept of history entirely different from ours. The Egyptians also had a
sense of history, but from a perspective far removed from ours. In using the
name of Cheops on this monument , the Egyptians were not attempting to
attribute it to him, but rather to commemorate him, to recall his memory at
the site where he built his funerary complex.....

Another voice of caution with some new insights is Eva Lange who
lectures Old and Middle Egyptian at the Humboldt-University of
Berlin.

"Rechts des Cheops-Titels steht ein anderer Textabschnitt, der sich nicht
auf Cheops, sondern auf Amasis bezieht: "Er machte für seine Mutter Isis,
die göttliche Mutter, und für Hathor, die Herrin des Westgebirges, eine
Inspektion, indem sie veranlasst wurde bezüglich der Stele. Er setzte für
sie ein neues Gottesopfer ein, und er erbaute ihren Tempel in Stein, indem
er das wiederholte, was er vorgefunden hatte. Der Auserwählte der
Götter(=Goldhorusname des Amasis) ist auf ihrem Sitz." Der Rest des Textes
behandelt die Stiftung verschiedener Opfer und die Restauration der Bemalung
des Sphinx, und ist aufgrund der Beschädigungen lückenhaft, meint aber
eindeutig von Amasis, nicht von Cheops vorgenommene Restaurationen, ist also
auch kein Indiz dafür, daß der Sphinx schon zu Chepos Zeiten stand. Übrigens

entstand die Zuweisung des Tempels an Isis mit dem Epiteton "Herrin der
Pyramide" wahrscheinlich aus einer Konfusion mit dem Namen der Gemahlin des
Cheops Henutsen (henut=Herrin)."

For her complet statement see:

http://f18.parsimony.net/forum32435/messages/8668.htm

Eva Lange makes the argument that half the inscription is about Khufu and
half about Amasis because of finding the Golden Horus name of Amasis "Chosen
of the Gods" on the right half of the stela. But Christiane Zivie-Coche's
translation of this part of the stela is very different from other
translations I have seen from Breasted on.

"Live the Horus Medjed, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Cheops,
given life.
He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramids, next to the house of
Haurun, northwest of the house of Osiris, Lord of Rasetau. He (re)built the
pyramid of the king's daughter Henutsen beside this temple. He made an
inventory, carved on a stela, for his mother Isis, the mother of the god,
Hathor, Mistress of the Sky. He restored for her the divine offerings and
(re)built her temple in stone, that which he found in ruins being renewed,
and the gods in their place. "p 85

I am hoping that a member of the list will direct me to a hieroglyphic
transcription of the Inventory Stela and other articles and comments about
this most intriguing artifact.

Best regards,

Greg Reeder
greg@egyptology.com

http://www.egyptology.com/

------

From: "A.K. Eyma"
To:
Sent: Saturday, March 01, 2003 3:33 PM
Subject: EEF (FWD) Re: The Inventory Stela?


---Two Messages Bundled and Forwarded---


==1===

From: Juan_de_la_Torre_Suarez

I have published an article in Spanish:

http://www.egiptomania.com/jeroglificos/articulo/inventario.htm

Automatic translation to English:

http://216.239.39.120/translate_c?hl=en&u=http://www.egiptomania.com/jerogli

ficos/articulo/inventario.htm

A cordial greeting,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Juan de la Torre Suárez (Ahmosis)

Egiptomania.com

http://www.egiptomania.com

ASADE

http://www.egiptologos.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



====2===


From: Peter Manuelian


Hi Greg,

See our Giza au premier millenaire by Christiane Zivie-Coche, Boston MFA,
1991, pls. 39-40 for the best photos I have ever seen of the piece, and pp.
218-46 for the text and translation.

Best regards,

Peter Manuelian



===3===


From: Michele Marcolin

Dear Greg,

Here you have couple of further ref. on the stela in question [Cairo,
Eg. Mus. 2091], in the case you do not know them. Nothing new, but
good luck.

- Daressy, La stele de la fille de Cheops", RecTrav XXX (1908), 1-6;

- Hassan, The Great Sphinx, 113-7, fig. 80, pls. LV-I;

- Zivie, Giza au premier millenaire. Autor du temple d'Isis dames des
pyramides.

Best regards.

Michele MARCOLIN (Mr.)
----------------------
Waseda Univesity (Tokyo)
micmarc@asagi.waseda.ac.jp


------


From: "Michael Tilgner"
To: "EEF"
Sent: Sunday, March 02, 2003 11:25 AM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


Greg Reeder wrote:
> I am looking for a hieroglyphic transcription and good photographs of the
> Inventory Stela

Hieroglyphic Text:
BA 12913
Mariette, Auguste, Monuments divers recueillis en Égypte et en Nubie / par
A. Mariette-Pacha. Texte par G. Maspero. - Paris : Vieweg, 1892, p. 17,
pl. 53

BA 4061
Brugsch, Heinrich, Thesaurus inscriptionum Aegyptiacarum : altägyptische
Inschriften / gesammelt, verglichen, übertragen, erklärt und autographiert
von Heinrich Brugsch. - Leipzig : Hinrichs, 1883-1891, p. 1231

Photograph (Wildung: "only useful photographic reproduction")
AEB 53.2858
HASSAN, Selim, The Great Sphinx and Its Secrets. Historical Studies in the
Light of Recent Excavations, Cairo, Government Press, 1953, pls. 55-56

See also:
AEB 69.0676
WILDUNG, Dietrich, Die Rolle ägyptischer Könige im Bewusstsein ihrer
Nachwelt. Teil I. Posthume Quellen über die Könige der ersten vier
Dynastien, Berlin, Verlag Bruno Hessling, 1969 = Müchner Ägyptologische
Studien 17, pp. 182-184 with the references given above

Best wishes,
Michael Tilgner

---

From: "Greg Reeder"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 10:17 AM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


Thanks to all those who provided me with a bibliography of works to
consult on the Inventory Stela.
I do however have some more questions about what is written in
Sphinx, by Christiane Zivie-Coche, translated by David Lorton, Cornell
2002 (see pages 83-90 ) [I will be getting her book Giza au premier
millenaire by Christiane Zivie-Coche, Boston MFA]

Once again Zivie-Coche translates part of the stela:

Live the Horus Medjed, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Cheops,
given life.
He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramids, next to the house of
Haurun, northwest of the house of Osiris, Lord of Rasetau.
*He (re)built the pyramid of the king's daughter Henutsen beside this
temple.*
He made an inventory, carved on a stela, for his mother Isis, the mother of
the god, Hathor, Mistress of the Sky. He restored for her the divine
offerings and (re)built her temple in stone, that which he found in ruins
being renewed, and the gods in their place. p 85.

The difficulty here is that she has left out this problematical line :
[qd.n.f mr.f r-gs Hwt-nTr nt nTrt tn]
He built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess
which in the original is followed by
the line as she has above:
[qd.n.f mr n sAt nsw Hnwtsn, r-gs Hwt-nTr tn]
*He (re)built the pyramid of the king's daughter Henutsen beside this
temple. *


In other words the translation should (?) have been thus:

Live the Horus Medjed, the King of Upper and Lower Egypt, Cheops,
given life.
He found the house of Isis, Mistress of the Pyramids, next to the house of
Haurun, northwest of the house of Osiris, Lord of Rasetau.
[He built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess]
He (re)built the pyramid of the king's daughter Henutsen beside this temple.
He made an inventory, carved on a stela, for his mother Isis, the mother of
the god, Hathor, Mistress of the Sky. He restored for her the divine
offerings and(re)built her temple in stone, that which he found in ruins
being renewed, and the gods in their place.


What is the explanation for Zivie-Coche not including that line of text that
appears to say the Khufu built his pyramid beside the temple of this
goddess? Does it have something to do with simple repetition? I know she
argues that the mention of Khufu is "commemorative" and Lange argues for at
least part of the stela indicating the actions of Amasis and not Khufu.
See: ( http://f18.parsimony.net/forum32435/messages/8668.htm )


The page by Juan de la Torre Suárez

http://www.egiptomania.com/jeroglificos/articulo/inventario.htm

is a great help in offering a transliteration of part of the text of the
Inventory Stela. Juan please add your thoughts here as well.

Zivie-Coche also translates qd ( build ) as (re)build. Are there any other
examples of qd meaning rebuild or restoration?

Best regards,
Greg Reeder
greg@egyptology.com

http://www.egyptology.com/

---

From:
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 9:07 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


Greg Reeder writes:
> I do however have some more questions about what is written in
> Sphinx, by Christiane Zivie-Coche, translated by David Lorton,
> Cornell 2002 (see pages 83-90 )
>
> The difficulty here is that she has left out this problematical line :
> [qd.n.f mr.f r-gs Hwt-nTr nt nTrt tn]
> He built his pyramid beside the temple of this goddess
> which in the original is followed by the line as she has above:
> [qd.n.f mr n sAt nsw Hnwtsn, r-gs Hwt-nTr tn]
> *He (re)built the pyramid of the king's daughter Henutsen beside this
> temple. *

In "Giza au premier millénaire", p. 219, C. Zivie-Coches translates
the two sentences, so their absence in her book about the sphinx is
just a typo.

BTW, the "qd.n=f" looks like an emphatic form, which gives much
more weight to the sentence, stressing the importance of the temple
of Isis (and weakening the argument for the translation "rebuild"
for the second sentence).
It's besides the temple of this godess that he built his pyramid, as
well as it's besides this temple that he built the pyramid of the king's
daughter's Henutsen"

As for "qd" meaning (re)build, C. Zivie-Coches, o.c., p. 223,
n. 674. refers to a number of publications. The usual term is of
course "qd m mAw", but a few lines later, in the case of the temple
itself, the translation "rebuild" is clear from the context, although
the idea is probably more specificaly to build in stone what was in
brick. (di.n=f n=s Htpw-nTr n mAw, qd.n=f Hw.t-nTr=s m inr,
wHm gm.n=f stp, nTr.w Hr s.t=sn).

regards,

S. Rosmorduc

-----
From: "Juan_de_la_Torre_Suarez"
To:
Sent: Tuesday, March 04, 2003 7:47 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


Dear Greg:

First of all, sorry for my poor English.

> What is the explanation for Zivie-Coche not including that line of text
> that appears to say the Khufu built his pyramid beside the temple of
> this goddess? Does it have something to do with simple repetition?

That text is not omitted in the original version of "Giza au premier
millenaire. Autour du temple d'Isis Dame des Pyramides". Christiane M.
Zivie-Coche. Museum of fine arts, Boston 1991". It should be a
translator's error.

> I know she
> argues that the mention of Khufu is "commemorative" and Lange argues
> for at least part of the stela indicating the actions of Amasis and not
> Khufu.

I agree with this. In the stela a series of restorations carried out by
a king saita are mentioned but using the name of Khufu symbolically.

> The page by Juan de la Torre Suárez
> http://www.egiptomania.com/jeroglifi...inventario.htm
> is a great help in offering a transliteration of part of the text of the
> Inventory Stela. Juan please add your thoughts here as well.

Thank you. As I explain in that article, I don't share several opinions
of Zivie-Coche, including part of the translation of the stela, to be
exact: "... He presented again for her divine offerings, (re)built her
temple in stone and he found again these gods in their place: ..." (this is
my translation). Here Civie-Coche translates: "Il a renouvelé pour elle les
offrandes divines et a (re)construit son temple en pierre, ce qu´il avait
trouvé en ruine étant renouvelé, les diex étant á leur place" ("... He
restored for her the divine offerings and (re)built her temple in stone,
that which he found in ruins being renewed, and the gods in their place").

Another point that I don't agree with is that Civie-Coche thinks that
the stela can mention the nemes of the Great Sphinx as another thing
restored. About this I affirm in my article: "The statue of the sphinx is
made of golden stone of about 3'64 meters high (seven bends), it has nothing
to do with the Great Sphinx which is not even named in the stela...". That
measure doesn't coincide with those of the nemes of the Great Sphinx; I
don't remember well but I believe that there are several meters of
difference.

> Zivie-Coche also translates qd ( build ) as (re)build. Are there any other
> examples of qd meaning rebuild or restoration?

Yes, we find _qd_ like rebuild or restoration i.e. in Sinuhe B, 297.

My article is only a summary that I enlarge in the first Bulletin of the
ASADE, I recommend you to read the much more complete work
of Zivie-Coche.


A cordial greeting,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Juan de la Torre Suárez (Ahmosis)

Egiptomania.com

http://www.egiptomania.com

ASADE

http://www.egiptologos.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


---



From: "David Lorton"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 11:18 AM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


Juan_de_la_Torre_Suarez wrote:
> That text is not omitted in the original version of "Giza au premier
> millenaire. Autour du temple d'Isis Dame des Pyramides". Christiane M.
> Zivie-Coche. Museum of fine arts, Boston 1991". It should be a
> translator's error.

I've checked the original French edition, _Sphinx! le Père la terreur,
Histoire d'une statue_ (Paris: Noésis, 1997), p. 106. The sentence
about which Greg Reeder queried is indeed missing there.

David Lorton


---

From: "Juan_de_la_Torre_Suarez"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, March 05, 2003 1:52 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


Dear David:

> > That text is not omitted in the original version of "Giza au premier
> > millenaire. Autour du temple d'Isis Dame des Pyramides". Christiane M.
> > Zivie-Coche. Museum of fine arts, Boston 1991". It should be a
> > translator's error.
>
> I've checked the original French edition, _Sphinx! le Père la terreur,
> Histoire d'une statue_ (Paris: Noésis, 1997), p. 106. The sentence
> about which Greg Reeder queried is indeed missing there.

As I said, S. Rosmorduc also wrote:

> In "Giza au premier millénaire", p. 219, C. Zivie-Coches translates the
>two sentences, so their absence in her book about the sphinx is just a
>typo.

The version of the 1997 year omitted this sentence, but this sentence is
translated in the version of 1991 "Giza au premier". When I said "original
version" I refered to the first (1991), but not the 1997 version, I have
never
refered to this latter version.

A cordial greeting,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Juan de la Torre Suárez (Ahmosis)

Egiptomania.com

http://www.egiptomania.com

ASADE

http://www.egiptologos.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


---



From: "John Legon"
To:
Sent: Thursday, March 06, 2003 4:18 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


Juan_de_la_Torre_Suarez wrote:
> Another point that I don't agree with is that Civie-Coche thinks that
>the stela can mention the nemes of the Great Sphinx as another thing
>restored. About this I affirm in my article: "The statue of the sphinx is
>made of golden stone of about 3'64 meters high (seven bends), it has
>nothing to do with the Great Sphinx which is not even named in the
> stela...". That measure doesn't coincide with those of the nemes of
> the Great Sphinx; I don't remember well but I believe that there are
> several meters of difference.

It might be of some interest to quote the relevant text as given by
Selim Hassan, based upon Daressy's translation in _Rec. Trav._ Vol. XXX,
2-10. See Hassan, _The Great Sphinx and its Secrets_ (Cairo 1953), 114:

"He restored the statue, all covered in painting, of the Guardian of the
Atmosphere, which guides the winds with his gaze. He made to quarry the
hind part of the nemes, which was lacking, gilded stone, and which had a
length of 7 ells (3.70 metres)."

The dimension of 7 ells (i.e. cubits) would thus seem to refer to the
rear part of the nemes headdress, and not to the headdress as a whole.
Elevations of the Sphinx as published by Mark Lehner (e.g. in _CAJ_
2(1), 3-26) suggest that this is a plausible dimension for a missing
rear part of the nemes. Hassan (p. 116) thought that he could actually
identify traces of the ancient repair work.

As for the Great Sphinx not being named on the stela, the references to
the "Place of Horemakhet" and the "plans of the image of Horemakhet"
would seem to suggest otherwise.

John Legon

---------------

[Hueij]

---


From: "Juan_de_la_Torre_Suarez"
To:
Sent: Friday, March 07, 2003 10:11 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


John Legon wrote:
> It might be of some interest to quote the relevant text as given by
> Selim Hassan, based upon Daressy's translation in _Rec. Trav._ Vol. XXX,
> 2-10. See Hassan, _The Great Sphinx and its Secrets_ (Cairo 1953), 114:
>
> "He restored the statue, all covered in painting, of the Guardian of the
> Atmosphere, which guides the winds with his gaze. He made to quarry the
> hind part of the nemes, which was lacking, gilded stone, and which had a
> length of 7 ells (3.70 metres)."

In Civie-Coche 1.991 p. 239 there is a comparison among the hieroglyphs
that Daressy believes to see in the stela and those that she herself can
recognize. She translates that fragment as: " (c) de ces paroles divines (d)
du grand (e) [any designation for Hurun-Harmakis that one cannot read] (f)
son effigie, sa surface tout entière (couverte) d'écrits (g)... (h) il a
fait... (i) 5. qui est in pierre dorée de sept coudéss (j)". It seems that
the translation of Daressy is not shared by Civie-Coche (she says to be
"aleatory and hazardous", p. 238) and personally I don't give any validity
to that of Daressy.

In (f) do we have _axm=f Hbs nb m sS_ "their image divine all covered in
writing", does the expression _m sS_ mean "in writing", i.e. Peasant B1,80,
Kamose 19, etc. Faulkner also mentions the expressions _ir m sS_ "to put in
writing", _smnt m sS_ "to register in writing". Therefore I do believe that
we are in front of something "all covered in writing", not "all covered in
painting" (would _Drwy_ be more appropriate?) as it was the Great Sphinx. It
is also necessary to keep in mind that previously they are mentioned in the
stela the writings _sSw_ of the sanctuary of Harmakis and I don't see the
reason to change the " writing " meaning for that of " painting " in that
same text for the same word. These mentioned writings also serve like
inventory, therefore possibly we have another restoration of a temple of
Harmakis, that of the Great Sphinx or other not found until nowadays that
maybe contained in his interior a golden sphinx of 7 elbows with texts in
their base.

In the same text later are named 7 gods, offerings are given to these
gods... another time the symbolic number 7? I find too casual that the
supposed piece of restored nemes measures in fact 7 elbows, while I don't
find so casual that it is the choosen measure for a statue of Hurun-Harmakis
and more being Hurun a god with cananean origin . By the way, the only
person who is able to see a nemes in the stela is Daressy and Hassan only
translates textually what Daressy says.

> The dimension of 7 ells (i.e. cubits) would thus seem to refer to the
> rear part of the nemes headdress, and not to the headdress as a whole.
> Elevations of the Sphinx as published by Mark Lehner (e.g. in _CAJ_
> 2(1), 3-26) suggest that this is a plausible dimension for a missing
> rear part of the nemes. Hassan (p. 116) thought that he could actually
> identify traces of the ancient repair work.

The Great Sphinx could be restored in saita period (it would be logical
on the other hand), the question is if this can be verified or not with the
Inventory Stela. I say that it is not possible, but I can be mistaken.


> As for the Great Sphinx not being named on the stela, the references to
> the "Place of Horemakhet" and the "plans of the image of Horemakhet"
> would seem to suggest otherwise.

Not necessarily, I think that it refers to another sphinx.

To finish I want to add that Civie-Coche translates _iw iAt nt
Hwrwn-HrmAxt ..._ The temenos of Hurun-Harmakis... and I have preferred "The
ruins of Hurun-Harmakis...", since I don't believe that _iAt_ is referred to
the temenos of the Great Sphinx, it maybe refers to the restored temple that
I mentioned before.

A cordial greeting,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Juan de la Torre Suárez (Ahmosis)

Egiptomania.com

http://www.egiptomania.com

ASADE

http://www.egiptologos.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~


-------



From: "John Legon"
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 09, 2003 9:11 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


Juan_de_la_Torre_Suarez wrote:
>John Legon wrote:
> > As for the Great Sphinx not being named on the stela, the references to
>> the "Place of Horemakhet" and the "plans of the image of Horemakhet"
>> would seem to suggest otherwise.
>
> Not necessarily, I think that it refers to another sphinx.
>
> To finish I want to add that Civie-Coche translates _iw iAt nt
> Hwrwn-HrmAxt ..._ The temenos of Hurun-Harmakis... and I have preferred
> "The ruins of Hurun-Harmakis...", since I don't believe that _iAt_ is
> referred to the temenos of the Great Sphinx, it maybe refers to the
> restored temple that I mentioned before.

Surely, the references to Hauron-Horemakhet/Hurun-Harmakis are sufficient
to identify the sphinx in question as the Great Sphinx. After all, the
foundation deposits of the temple built by Amenophis II near the front of
the Great Sphinx show that this temple was dedicated to Hauron-Horemakhet.

John Legon

---



From: "Colin Reader"
To:
Subject: EEF: Re: Inventory Stela

Dear All

Alas, I have been a little too busy to be able to do justice to the recent
thread on the Inventory Stela, so sorry if this appears a little late.

The Inventory Stela refers to Henutsen, wife/sister of Khufu. We know
that there are securely dated Old Kingdom references to this name
(see Breasted, Ancient Record Vol 1 p. 86) and yet Zivie-Coche states
(transl. by Lorton - p. 88) that the name Henutsen 'appears in no document
of the Saite Period' (the period to which the Inventory Stela is generally
attributed). Zivie-Coche then makes the statement 'Was the name reinvented
from scratch at this time (ie 26th Dyn) to conform with the Old Kingdom
colouration [sic] of the Stela?'.

This last quote strikes me as a curious thing to say - it
is clearly too much of a coincidence for a name to be invented in the 26th
Dynasty which just happened to be the correct name of one of Khufu's
queens. Whilst annals etc would have preserved the names of pharaohs, would
the names of royal wives from the Old Kingdom have been faithfully handed
down to the 26th Dynasty? Would the Saite kings and priests have had
sufficient knowledge of Fourth Dynasty queens to know that Khufu had a queen
called Henutsen and that the small pyramid against which the Temple of Isis
was built had belonged to this queen?

It may well be that the Saite period Egyptians did have this knowledge but
I'd appreciate it if anyone could take the trouble to explain the records
etc which would have preserved the name of early queens (was the southern
subsidiary pyramid inscribed for instance?).

Regards

Colin Reader


---

From: "John Legon"
To:
Sent: Sunday, March 30, 2003 9:10 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: Inventory Stela


Colin Reader wrote:
>The Inventory Stela refers to Henutsen, wife/sister of Khufu. We know
>that there are securely dated Old Kingdom references to this name
>(see Breasted, Ancient Record Vol 1 p. 86) and yet Zivie-Coche states
>(transl. by Lorton - p. 88) that the name Henutsen 'appears in no document
>of the Saite Period' (the period to which the Inventory Stela is generally
>attributed). Zivie-Coche then makes the statement 'Was the name reinvented
>from scratch at this time (ie 26th Dyn) to conform with the Old Kingdom
>colouration [sic] of the Stela?'.
>
>This last quote strikes me as a curious thing to say - it
>is clearly too much of a coincidence for a name to be invented in the 26th
>Dynasty which just happened to be the correct name of one of Khufu's
>queens.

There is, I think, no evidence from the Old Kingdom to show that Khufu
had a wife named Henutsen. AFAIK, the only evidence for this queen
comes from the Inventory Stela itself. Hence it is not possible to
assert that Henutsen is the "correct" name of one of Khufu's wives.

Zivie-Coche seems to be making the point that since there is no certain
evidence, the priests of the Saite Period could have "reinvented" the
name of Henutsen, to give the Inventory Stela an authentic flavour.
Henutsen was evidently a popular girl's name during the Old Kingdom, as
shown by a number of inscriptions in the tomb-chapels at Giza. It was
therefore a good choice for a hypothetical wife (or daughter) of Khufu.

>[...]
>It may well be that the Saite period Egyptians did have this knowledge but
>I'd appreciate it if anyone could take the trouble to explain the records
>etc which would have preserved the name of early queens (was the southern
>subsidiary pyramid inscribed for instance?).

I think it's reasonable to assume that the original offering chapel
of this small pyramid was inscribed in the name of a king's daughter
Henutsen, and that this name was still preserved on the walls when the
Temple of Isis was constructed here during the Saite Period. Hence the
name would be correct, but whether she was the daughter of Sneferu and
the wife/half-sister of Khufu (as Reisner supposed) is speculation.

John Legon

---

From: "David Lorton"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:07 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: Inventory Stela



> Zivie-Coche seems to be making the point that since there is no certain
> evidence, the priests of the Saite Period could have "reinvented" the
> name of Henutsen, to give the Inventory Stela an authentic flavour.
> Henutsen was evidently a popular girl's name during the Old Kingdom, as
> shown by a number of inscriptions in the tomb-chapels at Giza. It was
> therefore a good choice for a hypothetical wife (or daughter) of Khufu.
>of Khufu (as Reisner supposed) is speculation.

Here is Zivie-Coche's statement, from p. 110 of the French edition:
Aurait-il ete reinvente de toutes pieces a l'epoque saite pour mieux
coincider avec la coloraion Ancien Empire du monument?

According to the Oxford-Hachette dictionary, reinventer means "to
reinvent," "to recreate."

Beyond that, you can make what you will of her statement, which to me is
a bit unclear for lack of specification of just what she has in mind.
Or, you could send her an email and ask her.

David Lorton


---

From: "Greg Reeder"
To:
Sent: Monday, March 31, 2003 12:02 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: Inventory Stela


Thank you Colin Reader and John Legon for following up this discussion of
the Inventory Stela with some fascinating ideas.
John Legon wrote in part:

"There is, I think, no evidence from the Old Kingdom to show that Khufu
had a wife named Henutsen. AFAIK, the only evidence for this queen
comes from the Inventory Stela itself. "

and further:

" I think it's reasonable to assume that the original offering chapel
of this small pyramid was inscribed in the name of a king's daughter
Henutsen, and that this name was still preserved on the walls when the
Temple of Isis was constructed here during the Saite Period. Hence the
name would be correct, but whether she was the daughter of Sneferu and
the wife/half-sister of Khufu (as Reisner supposed) is speculation."

I should be pointed out that the author of the IS appears to be making a
word play here on the word Henut ( mistress) and Henutsen ( the king's
"daughter" ) that needs more comment.

The stela says "He (Khufu) found the temple of Isis ( gm.n.f pr-3st )
Mistress of the Pyramid (Hnwt mr)."

And adds "He built a pyramid for the King's Daughter Henutsen beside this
temple.
(qd.n.f. mr n s3t nsw Hnwtsn, r-gs Hwt-nTr). "

Is the title of Isis "Mistress of the Pyramid (Hnwt mr)," a later play on
the name of Khufu's "daughter " Henutsen?
Or is the name Henutsen a play on the title of Isis? If there is "no
evidence from the Old Kingdom to show that Khufu had a wife named
Henutsen" as John Legon states could the author of the IS be
making a connection between Khufu and his union with the goddess Isis?

Greg Reeder
greg@egyptology.com

http://www.egyptology.com/

---


From: "Colin Reader"
To:
Sent: Saturday, April 05, 2003 11:42 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: Inventory Stela


My recent silence on this subject has been due to my desire to delve deeper
into the subject, before responding to the points made by John Legon, Greg
Reeder (seems strange to spell it that way Greg!) and David Lorton - thanks,
gentlemen, for taking the trouble to reply.

I'm still awaiting further copies of reference works (thanks here to the
University of Heidelberg and their brilliant SSG-S service - see
http://www3.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/) so I may have more to add in the next
week or so. I want, here though, to discuss the name Henutsen and what we
do (or do not) know about it.

The issue is quite confused: Zivie-Coche says (p88 of "Sphinx History of a
Monument") 'Henutsen, a name attested in the Old Kingdom, appears in no
document of the Saite Period in connection with a member of the royal
family.' - except, of course, the IS.

In contrast Lehner says (p116 of 'The Complete Pyramids) 'The southern most
pyramid could belong to a queen Henutsen, a name only known from much later,
in dynasties 21-26, when the chapel at the centre of the eastern base of
this pyramid was converted to a temple of the goddess Isis...'

Lehner seems to make a direct link between the name 'Henutsen' and the
Temple of Isis - suggesting perhaps that he feels the name to have only been
used in this monument. So who's right?

After reviewing a number of documents from Heidelberg and Liverpool
Universities, I am persuaded to favour Zivie-Coche's assessment. Other than
the IS, I can find no reference to the name 'Henutsen' from the Saite
Period. There are, however, a small number (2?) of Old Kingdom texts which
use the name (see for example the stela of an OK priestess of Hathor who had
a daughter called Henutsen - www.hethert.org/inet-kae.html - thought to be
from a site south of Giza).

The only other text I've found (Cairo No 1691 - from the Fourth or Fifth
Dynasty - there may be others??), uses the name in a very secure royal
context (see Sethe, Urkunden des agyptischen Altertums, Abt 1, Bd 1, 34),
translated in Breasted 'Ancient Records p86 as "Revered by the great god,
king's confidante, Henutsen. It was her eldest son, the field judge, who
made [it] for her, to make mortuary offerings to her therein". Porter and
Moss do not attribute this text to the Temple of Isis.

So, other than the IS, the only other OK reference we seem to have from Giza
to 'Henutsen' is Cairo 1691 - which refers to a king's confidante - a
queen(?). There is no evidence, however, that this text is from the
mortuary temple of the third subsidiary pyramid, so we can't claim (though
to be fair it can't be ruled out) that this text could have provided the
Saite Period Egyptians with the name.

Greg, as to the author of the IS making a word play on mistress of the
pyramid/Henutsen - this is outside my field really, but I'll offer the
following if I may?

The five glyphs used on the IS to represent the name Henutsen appear to be
the same as the five glyphs for the name used on the Old Kingdom text (Cairo
1691) except that on this latter piece there is also the determinative (? -
as I suggested, I'm not a linguist!) for a princess - a seated female
figure. This would seem to suggest that the title 'Mistress of the
Pyramids' may be a play on the original Old Kingdom name 'Henutsen' rather
than your alternative idea, that the name Henutsen was a play on the title
of Isis. This would suggest, therefore, that somehow the Saite Period
Egyptians knew of Henutsen - that, somehow, knowledge of her name and OK
royal status had survived until the 21st Dynasty. Could this have been due
to the survival of an Old Kingdom original on which the IS was based? With
the firm OK provenance of the name 'Henutsen' and the limited data we have,
I struggle to see that we can reject this idea.

As I said above, I have a bit more work to do on this, hope to add more
shortly.

Any thoughts???

Regards

Colin Reader



----

[Hueij]

---------------



From: "Greg Reeder"
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 12:38 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: Inventory Stela



Dear Colin,
I find it of interest that one of the attributions of the name Henutsen
found from the Old Kingdom , which you mention, belongs to one
Henutsen who is a daughter of Inet-kaes who was " a priestess
of Het-Hert and Nit during the late 5th-early 6th Dynasty."
( see: www.hethert.org/inet-kae.html )

In the IS the author claims that Khufu built a pyramid for the "King's
Daughter Henutsen" and built a temple he constructed for his "mother"
Isis / divine mother Hathor. Isis and Hathor are associated together.
The King's Daughter(?) Henutsen, his "mother(s)" Isis ( Hnwt mr )
and Hathor (House of Horus) are all mentioned and buildings
assigned to them i.e. Henutsen's pyramid and the Temple of
Isis built onto the side of the pyramid.

So the question becomes why did the rulers of the 21 Dynasty build a temple
of Isis next to this pyramid (Henutsen's ?). Why was that spot chosen?

Did Isis become the Mistress (Hnwt) of the Pyramid because her temple was
built next to the pyramid of Hnwtsn? Or was the spot for the construction of
the temple of Isis chosen because a pyramid temple already existed with the
inscribed name of Henutsen on it? But why then was Isis connected with
Henutsen?

The Saite IS links Khufu to his "mother" Isis and to Hathor (the wife of
Horus the King being the living Horus) and links Khufu's daughter (?) to
the pyramid adjoining the temple. The complex appears then to be linked
in honor of the mother/daughter/wife... the goddess Isis.

I cannot say whether the IS is based on an older Old Kingdom inscription
(current scholarship is emphatic that it is not). But after looking over the
wonderfully complex use of words in it I cannot say we now fully
understand its nuances.

I look forward to any new ideas you and others are able to offer.

Greg Reeder
greg@egyptology.com

http://www.egyptology.com/

---



From: "A.K. Eyma"
To:
Sent: Sunday, April 06, 2003 10:26 PM
Subject: EEF: (FWD) Re: Inventory Stela-error


---Two Messages Bundled and Forwarded---


===1===

From: "Greg Reeder"

Correction:
I should not have said that the Inventory Stela says that Khufu
built the temple of Isis for his mother Isis but that he found the
temple of Isis and made the inventory for his mother Isis.
Sorry about that.

Greg

Greg Reeder
greg@egyptology.com

http://www.egyptology.com/

===2==

From: Robyn Adams Gillam

Henutsen is quite a common OK name. Have a look at Ranke's
Personennamen and the Topographical Bibliography.

Robyn Gillam

---

From: "Juan_de_la_Torre_Suarez"
To:
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 2:35 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?



According to "Patterns of Queenship", Lana Troy, Uppsala 1986, p.153,
there are two further mentions of Henutsen published by Smith 1949, Pl. 44b
(G7140) and Pl. 38b (falsedoor fragment MFA 27.1321). Has anyone seen
those images?

A cordial greeting,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Juan de la Torre Suárez (Ahmosis)

Egiptomania.com

http://www.egiptomania.com

ASADE

http://www.egiptologos.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

---

From: "Jan_de_la_Torre_Suarez"
To:
Sent: Monday, April 07, 2003 11:05 PM
Subject: EEF: Re: The Inventory Stela?


I wrote:
> According to "Patterns of Queenship", Lana Troy, Uppsala 1986, p.153,
> there are two further mentions of Henutsen published by Smith 1949, Pl.
>44b (G7140) and Pl. 38b (falsedoor fragment MFA 27.1321). Has anyone
>seen those images?

I manage to find the plates and in none of those places mentioned by
Lana Troy is really written the name of Henutsen. In G7140 appears the
mother of Khufukhaef, but not her name, and the falsedoor (if it is really a
falsedoor) was found in the GI-b pyramid, not in the south subsidiary
pyramid.

"False alarm" ;-)

A cordial greeting,
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Juan de la Torre Suárez (Ahmosis)

Egiptomania.com

http://www.egiptomania.com

ASADE

http://www.egiptologos.com

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



======
======




From: "i.bonfanti"
To:
Sent: Wednesday, September 17, 2003 9:13 PM
Subject: EEF Re: Inventory stele


Dear all,

Does anyone know where I can find the original Khufu Inventory stele
text? Would appreciate any help.

I. Bonfanti

---

From: "A.K. Eyma"
To:
Sent: Thursday, September 18, 2003 11:41 AM
Subject: EEF (FWD) re: Inventory stele



----- Two Messages Bundled and Forwarded---

===1==

From: "Joan Griffith"

>Does anyone know where I can find the original Khufu Inventory stele
>text? Would appreciate any help.

http://www.mathorigins.com

has a bibliography on the stele, and also refers to an EEF debate
on the stele during March '03.

Good luck!
Joan Griffith


==2==

From: Brian Yare

Breasted, Ancient Records of Egypt, §177-§180. Footnote e on page 83
has several references that may be of use.

Brian Yare
(Yare Egyptology)

http://www.yare.org/egypt

===
===