Star TreK Enterprise

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
were is my answer!

Hold on, there are only certain times during school when I can log on to 'Poly. I was in the middle of replying to the thread when lunch ended.

[GePap]

Well, save your time, as no real answer is possible

Cause in the end, the imperial forces, supposedly elite warriors of an empire you claim has thousands of ships each capable of destroying world each was soundly beaten by a tiny force of rebels they KNEW were coming, and a bunch of stone age 3 foot tall Teddy Bears. And how the empire could not know the bears existed, I could not know, they must be blind, stupid, complacent, have crappy sensors, or all at the same time. Any of them make this empire a rather sad force.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
Fighting in a forest does not make it a guerrilla battle-there were pitched battles (which is the correct term) in forests in the US Civil War. Guerrilla warfare speaks of small bands of insurgents attacking small bands of regularly superior forces and wearing them down.

i.e. what the Ewoks did, just on a short time scale. Notice how they were dying pretty consistantly until the ATST was captured and destroyed the others? Even though they blended into the forest (to a degree)? In fact, did we see a single Ewok manage to kill a stormtrooper (besides killing ATST's with logs)? All we saw was the Ewoks wearing the stormtroopers down.

HELLO! Those were not forces form the legion, but other forces-garrison forces. The number of men was small-but of course, so was the tiny legion.

How do you know?

Why the hell would the Imperials expect a battle, especially one in which air support would be useful? They're in a jungle.

1. Why would the empire station and entire elite legion? They KNEW a batlte was coming-that is the point of the movie!

They expected the Rebels to be captured. They didn't expect a big battle outside the generator (especially the back door). The legion was considered to be enough to handle a small Rebel strike team inside the generator.

2. If this generator is so important, put some damned backup.

As I mentioned, what use would air support be?

How would higher power settings have changed it?

I don't know-bear hinds behind tree-tree get vaporized-bear has lost his coverage and shileding, bear dies.

Did it look like there would have been more dead bears if it'd been bigger? The bears didn't win it, they just distracted the stormtroopers.

THEY HAVE HOVERCRAFT!!!!! If some small farmer on a desert world can afford a hover vehicle, you would think the imperials could as well.

So? Repulsors have their own set of disadvantages. And yes, they do have have vehicles that use repulsors, like snowspeeders and the Chariot LAV.

The literature is bunk- mobility is part of a trinity-any design feature created for mobility that makes a huge and expsinve vehicle extremely vulnerable is a BAD trade-off.

Expensive? They have fifty bazillion of them. Vulnerable? Did you notice how many ATAT's the Rebels took down using the tow cables? Do you think that could be applied on a mass scale (the Rogue Squadron games notwithstanding)? Considering it didn't even destroy the vehicle, I'd say that's not much of a vulnerability.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
1. Given that Imperial Armor is made of plastic and aluminum, I don't think this would not be much of a problem.

Where'd you get that idea?

2. Blasters can;t do much against freaking WOOD! For gods sake, the imperial forces could not even create any shrapnel!

Blasters on low power... as I've mentioned before.

At least phasers would have destroyed all the organic materials artound, hence leveling the forest, hence vaporizing the stone age 3 foot tall teddy bears.

Do you have any evidence of a phaser being able to automatically annihilate any sized organic mass? Wouldn't species 8472 be pretty easy to kill, then?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kucinich

Originally posted by GePap
i.e. what the Ewoks did, just on a short time scale. Notice how they were dying pretty consistantly until the ATST was captured and destroyed the others? Even though they blended into the forest (to a degree)? In fact, did we see a single Ewok manage to kill a stormtrooper (besides killing ATST's with logs)? All we saw was the Ewoks wearing the stormtroopers down.

Yes, in fact we see the Ewoks take MANY stormtroopers out, either the ones of those stupid hoverbikes, or beating them down with stones and clubs-quibble over whether they are dead, but the guys are out of combat, which si the same thing. And again, they took out supposedly modern armor with wood-pathetic.

They expected the Rebels to be captured. They didn't expect a big battle outside the generator (especially the back door). The legion was considered to be enough to handle a small Rebel strike team inside the generator.

1. These guys are so anal as to need and entire LEGION to take out a small rebel band, yet not anal enough to have reconoitered the damned moon they will build this critical thing on?!
2. THESE ARE STONE AGE TROOPS!

As I mentioned, what use would air support be?

Yes, what use was air support in Vietnam?... I don't know, BLOWING UP ****! "Hello, I am at }give location", and I am under fire-can you attack X coordinate with bombs? Or are imperial weapons inca[pable of handling wood?

Did it look like there would have been more dead bears if it'd been bigger? The bears didn't win it, they just distracted the stormtroopers.

Oh, wait- so your excuse is that this was not a real victory, all they did was fully occupy an entire elite legion enough for about 20 guys , no, 3 people, destroy their prime bojective, and then by capturing one single AtST take the whole legion captive? RIGHTTTTT

So? Repulsors have their own set of disadvantages. And yes, they do have have vehicles that use repulsors, like snowspeeders and the Chariot LAV.

Yes, but they do not appear as severe as being so unstable in motion that YOU CAN SLIP ON A LOG! OR TRIP!

Expensive? They have fifty bazillion of them. Vulnerable? Did you notice how many ATAT's the Rebels took down using the tow cables? Do you think that could be applied on a mass scale (the Rogue Squadron games notwithstanding)? Considering it didn't even destroy the vehicle, I'd say that's not much of a vulnerability.

ONe man took out a vehicle-you say they have countless numbers of them-well, then maybe next time they will get them to the scene of battle, becuase it is concentration of forces that win-I saw only like 6 at Hoth. And yes, if a vehicle has such an obvious flaw, enemies will catch on and make easy game of them.

At best you can say that people in the SW universe are morons when it comes to fighting war-but of course, why should we be surprised?

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kucinich

Where'd you get that idea?

Cause logs crushed the ATST like an egg.

Blasters on low power... as I've mentioned before.

OH, OK, so the imperials are simply STUPID, its not their equipment being bad...hello boys, enemy attack, pump up the volume!

Do you have any evidence of a phaser being able to automatically annihilate any sized organic mass? Wouldn't species 8472 be pretty easy to kill, then?

NO, becuase they were vastly advanced, a significant plot point and why the Borg could not assimilate them like they could others.

You says it is all about material sciences-well, in the show people and rocks are shown being vaporized- I assume trees would befall the same end.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by GePap
Yes, in fact we see the Ewoks take MANY stormtroopers out, either the ones of those stupid hoverbikes, or beating them down with stones and clubs-quibble over whether they are dead, but the guys are out of combat, which si the same thing. And again, they took out supposedly modern armor with wood-pathetic.

1) the hoverbike doesn't count - that was obviously pure chance

2) when did you see the guys go "out of combat"? All I saw them do was duck and try and shield their head.

3) they never took out the armor - but armor can only dissipate physical force over a larger surface area, not negate it altogether

They expected the Rebels to be captured. They didn't expect a big battle outside the generator (especially the back door). The legion was considered to be enough to handle a small Rebel strike team inside the generator.

[a]1. These guys are so anal as to need and entire LEGION to take out a small rebel band, yet not anal enough to have reconoitered the damned moon they will build this critical thing on?![/q]

How do you know how big a legion is? Moreover, it appeared that most of the troops and heavy weapons were concentrated around the landing platform and the main entrance.

2. THESE ARE STONE AGE TROOPS!

Who don't seem to have killed a single stormtrooper (again, we're not talking about the bikes or the ATSTs' death-by-log)

As I mentioned, what use would air support be?

Yes, what use was air support in Vietnam?... I don't know, BLOWING UP ****! "Hello, I am at }give location", and I am under fire-can you attack X coordinate with bombs? Or are imperial weapons inca[pable of handling wood?

Yep, people love to call in airstrikes on enemies no more than twenty meters away. Plus, the bombers would have to fly over the jungle, making friendly fire even MORE likely.

Did it look like there would have been more dead bears if it'd been bigger? The bears didn't win it, they just distracted the stormtroopers.

Oh, wait- so your excuse is that this was not a real victory, all they did was fully occupy an entire elite legion enough for about 20 guys , no, 3 people, destroy their prime bojective, and then by capturing one single AtST take the whole legion captive? RIGHTTTTT

that was about as coherent as one of CBH's posts...

Yes, but they do not appear as severe as being so unstable in motion that YOU CAN SLIP ON A LOG! OR TRIP!

How often do you think ATSTs encounter neatly stacked logs like that? The Empire generally doesn't need vehicles like that...

... and considering that the Federation and the Borg don't seem to HAVE any assault vehicles, there's no contest anyway.

ONe man took out a vehicle

You mean Luke? Why would conventional Imperial ground forces be specially equipped to defend against Jedi, considering that they're virtually all dead?

-you say they have countless numbers of them-well, then maybe next time they will get them to the scene of battle, becuase it is concentration of forces that win-I saw only like 6 at Hoth. And yes, if a vehicle has such an obvious flaw, enemies will catch on and make easy game of them.

The six at Hoth were not even near the full complement of one ISD. The Empire has 25,000 ISD's. They didn't need more forces - they completely overwhelmed the Rebels as it was. And that vulnerability was one that was virtually impossible to exploit (the airspeeder was piloted by one of the best pilots in the galaxy).

[GePap]

Originally posted by Kucinich

1) the hoverbike doesn't count - that was obviously pure chance

Oh, of course....

2) when did you see the guys go "out of combat"? All I saw them do was duck and try and shield their head.

Then watch the movie again0the guys are beaten down-if they are shielding their heads, tehy can't be doing anything else, now can they?

3) they never took out the armor - but armor can only dissipate physical force over a larger surface area, not negate it altogether

They squashed the cab-that is what I see as taking the armor out-was the vehicle fighting afterwards? If no, it was OUT.

How do you know how big a legion is? Moreover, it appeared that most of the troops and heavy weapons were concentrated around the landing platform and the main entrance.

Ahh, so their coordination sucks eggs if they could not get more troops there in time..... Oh, and what about sationing troops INSIDE! That might help, NO?

Who don't seem to have killed a single stormtrooper (again, we're not talking about the bikes or the ATSTs' death-by-log)

Watch the movie again. It is obvious.

As I mentioned, what use would air support be?

Yep, people love to call in airstrikes on enemies no more than twenty meters away. Plus, the bombers would have to fly over the jungle, making friendly fire even MORE likely.

SO? This is the empire, so they would not care about friendly fire, now would they?
Second, you would think they could accurately target stuff better than today, NO?

that was about as coherent as one of CBH's posts...

No, it was simple- you claim "this was not a victory, they just were a distraction", well, it seems they were a rather huge one if a tiny band of rebels was then able to take out the generator-thought I would atribute that to general imperial stupidity, like not posting guards INSIDE!, and poor troop handling, like not being able to bring in heavy reinforcements form the other entrace.

How often do you think ATSTs encounter neatly stacked logs like that? The Empire generally doesn't need vehicles like that...

Nice dodge.

... and considering that the Federation and the Borg don't seem to HAVE any assault vehicles, there's no contest anyway.

Why would you need them if infantry weapons are powerful enough?

You mean Luke? Why would conventional Imperial ground forces be specially equipped to defend against Jedi, considering that they're virtually all dead?

Right, cause he used all his Jedi powers......like getting pulled up by rope and stuff-give me a break.

The six at Hoth were not even near the full complement of one ISD. The Empire has 25,000 ISD's. They didn't need more forces - they completely overwhelmed the Rebels as it was. And that vulnerability was one that was virtually impossible to exploit (the airspeeder was piloted by one of the best pilots in the galaxy).

All you prove is that the rebels are even more pathetic than the empire, and yet they WIN! So, no, empire warfighting tactics are crap all around-but then, this was staged by Lucas, who's knowledge of decent tactics probalby is equal to his knowledge of Linear B.

[Sprayber]

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[Kuciwalker]

Then watch the movie again0the guys are beaten down-if they are shielding their heads, tehy can't be doing anything else, now can they?

Until they get AWAY from the rocks.

Seriously, being directly under a bunch of furry things throwing rocks at your head isn't somehow a weakness of stormtroopers; anyone in that situation would kinda be stuck.

3) they never took out the armor - but armor can only dissipate physical force over a larger surface area, not negate it altogether

They squashed the cab-that is what I see as taking the armor out-was the vehicle fighting afterwards? If no, it was OUT.

Oh, the ATST? Here:

Given that the SCOUT walker is supposed to be the Imperial equivalent of the HUMVEE, this is not too surprising. The BIG walker -- the AT-AT -- would almost certainly have not been damaged anywhere near as badly by the trees. Trekkies seem to think that the AT-ST and AT-AT walker are true tanks. Neither are tanks- they are armored personnel carriers. I can't believe this is so difficult to understand. Don't they know what the term "all-terrain armored TRANSPORT" means?

As for the AT-ST's shell being collapsed, it is obviously very thin armor. Anyone with even a VAGUE familiarity with column buckling and bending movement formulas knows that a thin shell will easily collapse under the influence of a large impact like that, even if it is made from the strongest material known to modern science, multiplied in strength by an order of magnitude. That armour could have made from materials far superior to anything known to man, and still buckle easily under those conditions.

Estimating that the tree was 100 feet long by 15 feet wide (which, given the size of the tree we saw, is probably UNDER-estimating it), plus the mathematical formula for the volume of a cylinder gives us the volume of the tree. The density of redwood is 26 lbs/cubic foot. So, if we have approximate volume of tree and density, we have the mass.

The tree's MASS is over 200,000 kilograms. The tree's velocity was QUITE FAST at the end of its arc. Using the density of redwood, we get a tree that weighs over 200 metric tons.

200 metric tons of mass moving at anywhere NEAR 10 meters/second... or even just 3 meters/second has a kinetic energy measured in MEGAJOULES.

Ahh, so their coordination sucks eggs if they could not get more troops there in time..... Oh, and what about sationing troops INSIDE! That might help, NO?

They did. Didn't you notice how Han got caught the first time?

As I mentioned, what use would air support be?

Yep, people love to call in airstrikes on enemies no more than twenty meters away. Plus, the bombers would have to fly over the jungle, making friendly fire even MORE likely.

SO? This is the empire, so they would not care about friendly fire, now would they?

Yes, they would. Especially considering that you can't ever be sure of killing everything through aerial bombardment, so you'd need ground forces to mop up.

Second, you would think they could accurately target stuff better than today, NO?

Through dense foliage, against bears?

that was about as coherent as one of CBH's posts...

No, it was simple- you claim "this was not a victory, they just were a distraction",

No, I claim the bears didn't actually kill stormtroopers (with the same disclaimer as before), that the bears were a distraction for the actions of the Rebel commandos.

well, it seems they were a rather huge one if a tiny band of rebels was then able to take out the generator-thought I would atribute that to general imperial stupidity, like not posting guards INSIDE!, and poor troop handling, like not being able to bring in heavy reinforcements form the other entrace.

Addressed above.

How often do you think ATSTs encounter neatly stacked logs like that? The Empire generally doesn't need vehicles like that...

Nice dodge.

i.e. rebuttal?

... and considering that the Federation and the Borg don't seem to HAVE any assault vehicles, there's no contest anyway.

Why would you need them if infantry weapons are powerful enough?

Against ATAT's? The best Federation infantry weapons don't appear to have an effective range of more than two hundred meters or so... compare this to over ten kilometers in an ATAT.

Right, cause he used all his Jedi powers......like getting pulled up by rope and stuff-give me a break.

Like a lightsaber.

All you prove is that the rebels are even more pathetic than the empire, and yet they WIN! So, no, empire warfighting tactics are crap all around-but then, this was staged by Lucas, who's knowledge of decent tactics probalby is equal to his knowledge of Linear B.

The Rebels did not win the battle. They didn't even achieve their goals - they lost a lot of people.

[Saint Marcus]

Cause in the end, the imperial forces, supposedly elite warriors of an empire you claim has thousands of ships each capable of destroying world each

It takes "at least a 1000 starships" to destroy a world, in the SW universe.

Do you have any evidence of a phaser being able to automatically annihilate any sized organic mass? Wouldn't species 8472 be pretty easy to kill, then?

Species 8472 wasn't your ordinary organic species. They came from another dimension, and their moloculor was completely different. Hence, the Borg couldn't assimilate them. Hence, phasers couldn't vaporise them.

Blasters on low power

Proof? And if it is so, why on earth didn't they increase the yield? In ST, they usually increase the yield after the first shot appears to be inneffective. However, Storm Troopers apparantly don't think of it. Or wait...maybe the Blasters don't even have a higher power setting. After all, we have never seen them use a blaster on a higher setting.

and considering that the Federation and the Borg don't seem to HAVE any assault vehicles, there's no contest anyway.

They don't need to. As we have seen in various eps, the Borg use orbital bombardement to weaken an enemy and then use transporters to move up right behind them and assimilate them. This is FAR more effective than using slow moving vehicles. Transporter owns Imperial Walkers. Drones own Storm Troopers. Contest over!

The Empire has 25,000 ISD's

That's all? The Borg have many more Cubes than the Empire has ISD's it seems!

[joncha]

Has anyone bothered pointing out that this (now painful) thread is well over 500 posts? Long past time to close it, methinks.

[Saint Marcus]

On to the 1000

[Al B. Sure!]

andf the thread creator hasnt posted in pages...

[Saint Marcus]

The truth about AT-STs:

http://www.st-v-sw.net/STSWATST.html