Troy

[Drake Tungsten]

Murray deserved Best Actor for Ghostbusters.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by molly bloom
'While walking through the wilderness, Heracles was set upon by the Dryopians.

where is this quote from?

'The worship of Horned Apollo included ecstatic naked dancing and feats of acrobatics ....

http://home.earthlink.net/~ekerilaz/theran.html

a page about some inscriptions for which there is no single image(yet there are terrible translations of them!) and who's author isn ex-mormon not-ex-gay (how's that for a suprise?)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MarkG
where is this quote from?

'The worship of Horned Apollo included ecstatic naked dancing and feats of acrobatics ....

http://home.earthlink.net/~ekerilaz/theran.html

a page about some inscriptions for which there is no single image(yet there are terrible translations of them!) and who's author isn ex-mormon not-ex-gay (how's that for a suprise?)

The Herakles quote is taken from a Wikipedia article, itself extracted from 'Herakles in Trachis', part 143 of Vol. Two of Graves's Greek Myths, the sources given as being Diodorus Siculus, Probus, and Scholiast on Apollonius Rhodius.

As for your second statement, so what?

In any case, here's Robert Graves's from his 'Greek Myths', specifically 'The Madness of Herakles':

'....Many friends came to solace him in his distress; and, finally, when the passage of time had somewhat alleviated his pain, he placed himself at Eurystheus's disposal.
Some however, hold that it was not until his return from Tatarus that Herakles went mad and killed the children; that he killed Megara too; and that the Pythoness then told him:

'You shall no longer be called Palaemon! Phoebus Apollo names you Herakles, since from Hera you shall have undying fame among men!' -

as though he had done Hera a great service. Others say that Herakles was Eurystheus's lover, and performed the Twelve Labours for his gratification...'

Sources: Euripides's 'Herakles', Tzetzes 'On Lycophron' and Diotimus's 'Heraklea', as quoted by Athenaeus

Notes:

Herakles's homosexual relations with Hylas, Iolaus, and Eurystheus, and the accounts of his luxurious armour, are meant to justify Theban military custom. In the original myth, he will have loved Eurystheus's daughter, not Eurystheus himself.'

Robert Graves, 'The Greek Myths', Vol. II, Part 122, 'The Madness of Herakles' pp101-103

There's also Herakles's gifting of the city of Messene to Nestor, who 'he came to love more than Hylas and Iolaus', Nestor being the first to swear an oath by Herakles.

[Pax]

Troy is a good movie. Brad Pitt is a good actor. Why is it that Shakespeare gets modified all the time and everyone is okay with that but any other adaptation gets reamed?

[Pax]

Did anyone else see the movie as an antiwar movie.

[DinoDoc]

No more than the Illiad was anti-war.

[MarkG]

Originally posted by molly bloom
The Herakles quote is taken from a Wikipedia article, itself extracted from 'Herakles in Trachis', part 143 of Vol. Two of Graves's Greek Myths, the sources given as being Diodorus Siculus, Probus, and Scholiast on Apollonius Rhodius.

who is Graves?

give me some url's to actual quotes from ancient greek writers(instead of a guy who says Heracles was bi according to anonymous "others" ) and then we can discuss

[Imran Siddiqui]

Why is it that Shakespeare gets modified all the time and everyone is okay with that but any other adaptation gets reamed?

Who says everyone is okay with it?! I thought that last 'Romeo and Juliet' with Leo DeCaprio was a travesty!

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Emperor Fabulous
I can't ever imagine a story being passed down these days like that. I mean, imagine if France walked into Britain and completely ransacked the entire country. It had been a country of brave warriors, some of the best of their time. Then only like 1,000 or so people survived, and went on to found the United States. Thus, the U.S. is created by a bunch of losers who got their asses whooped.

Somehow, I can't ever imagine that. We'd be ashamed to even suggest that we were descended from losers.

Lets see - Puritans fleeing Charles 1, whose fellow puritans in england saw their Commonwealth give in to a restored Stuart Monarchy. Check

Lots of impoverished, displaced Scots Irish. Check.

Highland Scots after Culloden. Check.

Unemployed Londoners coming as indentees. Check

Convicts. Check.

Mennonites and other Germans fleeing the chaos of Germany went it was the battleground for bigger powers. Check.

Refugees from the Irish Famine. Check.

Sicilians and South Italians, losers during the Risorgimentio, fleeing poverty. Check.

Jews. Check.

South Viet Namese. Check.

Yup, we WERE settled to a very consdierable extent by "losers". But losers who didnt give up, who had the courage to start over. Kinda reminds one of the Aeneid, no?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by molly bloom


Also known as fun destroying killjoys, who ended up producing Tipper Gore, Pat Robertson and Andrea Dworkin.

Still, at least Europe dumped a load of rubbish.

Odd, Tipper Gore and Pat Robertson are both Southerners, and Dworkin is IIUC of eastern european Jewish descent. None descended from New England Calvinists.

Its amazing how America is villified for being the font of hedonistic culture, and at the SAME time is villified for puritanism. Villified for Rap music, AND villified for Tipper Gore.

Reminds me of how the Jews have been villified for being capitalists, and for being socialists.

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by MarkG
who is Graves?

give me some url's to actual quotes from ancient greek writers(instead of a guy who says Heracles was bi according to anonymous "others" ) and then we can discuss

Robert Graves:

http://www.kirjasto.sci.fi/rgraves.htm

Why on earth should I do your homework for you?

I don't see how Diodorus Siculus or Apollonius of Rhodes are 'anonymous' if they've been named as sources.

You strike me as being like the drowning Egyptian- up to his eyes in denial:

'The feature of Athenian sexual life that may appear most different from our arrangements is the practice of homosexual relationships between an adult male and an adolescent boy.

In the past this topic was rigorously avoided, due to the
operation of a specious syllogism: the Greeks are a good thing; homosexuality is a bad thing; therefore the Greeks could not have done it. These wretched evasions about 'the love that dare not speak its name' (Alfred Douglas) led to Mahaffy's book 'Social Life in Greece from Homer to Menander' (1874)
being withdrawn because it treated (and condemned) male homosexuality; they also led the Dean of a Cambridge college in E.M. Forster's novel 'Maurice' (published only in 1970) to tell a student who is translating from an unnamed Greek author:

'Omit: a reference to the unspeakable vice of the Greeks'.

Now we know better. A crucial moment was the
publication in 1978 of Sir Kenneth Dover's great book 'Greek Homosexuality', illustrated with pictures of vase-painting that leave no doubt about the reality of sexual relationships between Athenian men and adolescent boys.

A further important moment was the publication of Volumes 2 and 3 of Michel Foucault's 'History of Sexuality: The Uses of Pleasure' (1984) 'The Care of the Self' (1986). Foucault, who divorced sexuality from nature and regarded it as cultural production,
raised crucial issues:

(1) how is sexual experience constituted in a given
culture, i.e. what are the actual types of sexual activity?

(2) in what terms - terms of power or equality - is sexual experience constructed?

(3) how does sexual experience relate to other forms of
experience, to political, social, and economic experience?

(4) is sexual activity different for different members of
society, for men and women, for members of different social classes? '

http://www.soci.niu.edu/~phildept/Dye/AthenianSex.html

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/~ekondrat/heraklesbiblio.html#ancientsources

Political, social and sexual power for the Ancient Greeks resided in the male body, more specifically, the free male adult body- everything and everyone else was subservient to it, be it their wives, the hetairai, or the adolescent boys (as personified by Hylus and Iolaus/Iolaos, both of whom are significantly shown to be younger than Herakles, or Ganymede, chosen by Zeus to be his cup bearer because of his beauty).

Exactly why you think Herakles can't be believed to have had same sex experiences, when the myth of his father Zeus and Ganymede is reasonably well known and depicted (Rembrandt's painting of the abducted boy, pissing himself in fright in mid-air), is a mystery to me.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ganymede_(mythology)

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Odd, Tipper Gore and Pat Robertson are both Southerners, and Dworkin is IIUC of eastern european Jewish descent. None descended from New England Calvinists.

Its amazing how America is villified for being the font of hedonistic culture, and at the SAME time is villified for puritanism. Villified for Rap music, AND villified for Tipper Gore.

Reminds me of how the Jews have been villified for being capitalists, and for being socialists.

Not odd at all, given that theories of racial aristocracy that underpinned the Confederacy can be traced back to Protestant settlers in New England (not all of whom were Calvinists- some Puritans were, and some weren't, Calvinists).

It seems entirely natural to me that people vilify that which they disagree heartily with and consider to be dangerous- it is by no means the same people who vilify rap music on the one hand, and the antisex antifreedom movements exemplified by the likes of Robertson, Wildmon and Dworkin (whose Judaism, practising or not, has nothing to do with her 'Puritanism').

By the Eighteenth Century, in any case, Puritanism itself had given birth to two distinct (and to some extent) opposed, philosophies:

the evangelical, finger wagging browbeaters, and the rationalists and precursors of the Unitarians.

So one philosophy, or way of life, can ultimately engender both the A.CL.U. and libertarianism, Jerry Falwell and Tipper Gore.

Samuel Willard, minister of the Third Church in Boston, on reading an attack on the government of Masschusetts Bay, by the colony of Anabaptists in Charlestown:

(they had justified their congregation and colony by citing the example of the first settlers, claiming a similar flight from persecution into exile and safety)

'I perceive they are mistaken in the design of our first Planters, whose business was not Toleration; but were professed Enemies of it, and could leave the World professing they died no Libertines. Their business was to settle, and (as much as in them lay) secure Religion to Posterity, according to that way in which they believed was of God.'

Ne Sutor ultra Crepidam, Boston, 1681

[Imran Siddiqui]

Not odd at all, given that theories of racial aristocracy that underpinned the Confederacy can be traced back to Protestant settlers in New England (not all of whom were Calvinists- some Puritans were, and some weren't, Calvinists).

I must disagree greatly. The ideas of racial aristocracy were entrenched in the Anglican South well before they were united or even shared much correspondance with the Puritans up north. And IIRC, the Puritans were members of the Reformed Church (Calvinists) and that was the reason they were forced to leave England, who didn't tolerate that kind of stuff.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Yup, we WERE settled to a very consdierable extent by "losers". But losers who didnt give up, who had the courage to start over. Kinda reminds one of the Aeneid, no?

Whoa!

[Lorizael]

Saw the movie today. My thoughts are... mixed. I thought it was done very well. It looked and sounded good (the music was inconsistent though; in some places I thought it was wonderful and in others I thought it was just getting in the way), was fairly well written and fairly well acted, but as I walked out of the theater, I just kind of shrugged. I just don't know what the movie did. Didn't really evoke much emotion. Didn't really make me think any. Eh.