Islamic militants praise 'heroic' slaughter of pregnant woman, 4 daughters

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

GePap,

That map is a huge threadkill when your fighting a bad connection.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking
The point I was trying to make is that these are not peace-loving people who simply couldn't find affordable accomodation somewhere else.

These are militants. Every family owns a fully automatic assault rifle.

LOTM - as does every Iraqi family. They live in a dangerous place.


They are not innocent bystanders. They know and intend their presence to be an unapologetic provocation to the Palestinians.

LOTM - whats inoccent? Lord merciless wants to kill every Palestinian who cheers for acts of terror. I hold that deliberately killing Palestinians for no other reasons than that they cheer for terrorist acts would be an outrage, whether they are engaging in "provocation" or not. The same holds true for settlers.


Really, when you think about it, they are not so unlike suicide bombers.

LOTM - if like Baruch Goldstein (I spit on his grave) they murder innocents than that is so. If not, not.


*awaits flames*

[Az]

nice aerial/ sat pic. I recognize some locations.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

The point I was trying to make is that these are not peace-loving people who simply couldn't find affordable accomodation somewhere else.

These are militants. Every family owns a fully automatic assault rifle.

LOTM - as does every Iraqi family. They live in a dangerous place.

Yes, and most Americans consider all those Iraqi families to be combatants, at least once they're dead.

Difference - the Jewish Settlers CHOSE to live there.

They are not innocent bystanders. They know and intend their presence to be an unapologetic provocation to the Palestinians.

LOTM - whats inoccent? Lord merciless wants to kill every Palestinian who cheers for acts of terror. I hold that deliberately killing Palestinians for no other reasons than that they cheer for terrorist acts would be an outrage, whether they are engaging in "provocation" or not. The same holds true for settlers.

Someone made the point that settlers are peace-loving
people minding their own business, and should have the right to safety and freedom...

I think that point is false. That is all.

Really, when you think about it, they are not so unlike suicide bombers.

LOTM - if like Baruch Goldstein (I spit on his grave) they murder innocents than that is so. If not, not.

They indoctrinate their children with prejudice, apartheid, and race prejudice. They entrench a cycle of violence, that they KNOW will result in the death of innocents. They intentionally put their children in harms way for political or religious reasons. They are willing to die for their causes.

Yes, there are differences. The suicide bomber is far more direct. They are also far more without alternatives....

[The Mad Viking]

Gepap - my source was the CIA world factbook, says about 5,000. Of course 7,500 really doesn't change the math much when compared to 1.3 million Palestinians...

[Az]

They indoctrinate their children with prejudice, apartheid, and race prejudice. They entrench a cycle of violence, that they KNOW will result in the death of innocents. They intentionally put their children in harms way for political or religious reasons. They are willing to die for their causes.

That's a lot of bull. Most palestinians would be far better off immigrating, yet they insist on staying in the dangers of the west bank, and gaza, and also teach their children hatred and violence............ CACHING, THEY'RE LEGITIMATE WARTIME TARGETS! I'll just pick up the phone for the IDF artillery, so they'll raze the west bank cities, and the Gaza strip.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Kucinich
I agree. I have some new sig material :vomit:

Well, I manage to have you drop the insanely long sig

And sorry if I don't provide you a nice and cuddly description of war. Sorry if I extend the usual "what were these civilians doing in the war zone? Why didn't they flee?" comment to the Israeli context, instead of keeping it to the usual Iraqi / Palestinian context where it is so widely used.

If you are looking for a relieving description of war, where you expect to read how humane it is, you better not look at any of my posts on the topic. War. is. ugly.

[GePap]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
GePap,

That map is a huge threadkill when your fighting a bad connection.

Sorry, but that is by far the best map there is, and that is the size of the pic...

Actually, I used that map for my University thesis.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Mad Viking


Yes, and most Americans consider all those Iraqi families to be combatants, at least once they're dead.


LOTM - False.

Difference - the Jewish Settlers CHOSE to live there.



Someone made the point that settlers are peace-loving
people minding their own business, and should have the right to safety and freedom...

I think that point is false. That is all.

LOTM - and i think its irrelevant

They indoctrinate their children with prejudice, apartheid, and race prejudice. They entrench a cycle of violence, that they KNOW will result in the death of innocents.

LOTM - the same could be said for probably about 30% of the pal population. I dont think that justifies murdering them.


They intentionally put their children in harms way for political or religious reasons.

LOTM - you could say that about someone who moved from the US to Tel Aviv

[Az]

Your Uni thesis was about the ME? how didn't I know about that?!

[DinoDoc]

I see the discussion on if it is OK or not to kill a pregnant woman and her children continues unabated.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well, I manage to have you drop the insanely long sig

And sorry if I don't provide you a nice and cuddly description of war. Sorry if I extend the usual "what were these civilians doing in the war zone? Why didn't they flee?" comment to the Israeli context, instead of keeping it to the usual Iraqi / Palestinian context where it is so widely used.

LOTM - i dont think anyone (sane)has said that justifies deliberate murder of Pals or Iraqis. If a Pal had fired at Israeli troops and a settler was killed as collateral damage you might have a parallelism. Thats not what happened here.


If you are looking for a relieving description of war, where you expect to read how humane it is, you better not look at any of my posts on the topic. War. is. ugly.

War is hell - William Tecumseh Sherman. Of course HE was only trying justify burning homes, not killing civilians, and he was actually moderate toward the South once the war was over. War is hell, but there are lesser and greater hells. The Red Cross, IIUC, appeals to "the honor of the warrior" in attempts to get third world armies to learn to not kill and rape civilians, to treat prisoners properly, to not recruit child soldiers etc. Thats what the Geneva Conventions are about Spiff - they accept that war happens, and try to limit some of its horror.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I see the discussion on if it is OK or not to kill a pregnant woman and her children continues unabated.

Sigh. Ain't life beautiful, DD?

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
War is hell - William Tecumseh Sherman. Of course HE was only trying justify burning homes, not killing civilians, and he was actually moderate toward the South once the war was over. War is hell, but there are lesser and greater hells. The Red Cross, IIUC, appeals to "the honor of the warrior" in attempts to get third world armies to learn to not kill and rape civilians, to treat prisoners properly, to not recruit child soldiers etc. Thats what the Geneva Conventions are about Spiff - they accept that war happens, and try to limit some of its horror.

First, LOTM, thanks for your patience. I can expect my point to upset you very strongly (more than many Apolytonites), yet you're the one who is willing to discuss, and to actually share your point of view

Second, I agree with the fact the hells of war should be limited. Unfortunately, I haven't seen many encouragin things, even since WW2. The war in Vietnam killed millions of civilians. The war in Chechnya completely leveled Groznyi, and I suppose many other cities as well. The war in Korea killed millions (admittedly, many of them were fighters), and pretty much every war so far has been outrageously nasty.

Even in Iraq, where the American efforts of treating the population well to win its heart are to be greeted as good news, torture has been found, indiscriminate violence in war zones has been found, etc. And this is probably the most "humane" war ever waged so far, since the hearts of the Iraqi people are the ultimate military objective!

I wish these people don't get killed. I wish these barbarous acts stop. I can hope for better methods of killing (i.e rockets instead of pump rifles, automatic rifles instead of lynching), but I don't see how the logic of death is any different with the new methods. The soldier that has been killed, whether by a rocket or a dull knife, will continue to leave mourning parents, and maybe mourning orphans. The children who lose their parents, their friends or their homes in an attack will suffer just the same whether the attack has been done by a nice smart bomb, by a bulldozer, or by ye olde TNT.

I would have prefered these Palestinians to scare the hell out of these settlers so that they go back in Israel without muttering. I would have even prefered these Palestinians to capture these people and treat them humanely in some compound. Of course I'd have preferd that over the murder of a pregnant mother and all her children. And obviously, I would have prefered that nothing happens at all instead of this murder (well, maybe not the "scare" part, because I really think these people are the worst thorn to peace on the Israeli side, and their abandoning their homes is absolutely needed if we want to create the conditions for a successful peace).

Maybe that's because I'm a maximalist. But I think war shouldn't happen unless absolutely warranted, because war is the time where every human may turn back into a beast. I don't want to see the day where war will be deemed a palatable political tool, at least in the perspective of the one on the good side of the gun.

[Kuciwalker]

Of course war is palatable - unless you want to stand by while even MORE die.

Were you against Kosovo, Spiffor? Or Gulf I?