6 US Troops charged for maltreating Iraqi jail inmates

[Drake Tungsten]

No joke. Just a backhanded insult to people that quote themselves as if they've made a new or interesting point that should be forced on the rest of us.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Rummy is still safe tho'.

He must stay. He's a great example of someone who forgot the difference between self-confidence and arrogance.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara


My great-uncle was shot on the ground and the rest of his crew nearly beaten to death by a German mob. The soldiers had to rescue them. This isn't to contradict you.

Who was your great uncle?. I remember some book out that detailed some pretty heroic efforts to save fellow crewmen in a similar situation.

[Drake Tungsten]

He must stay. He's a great example of someone who forgot the difference between self-confidence and arrogance.

There is no difference.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

Originally posted by Alexander's Horse
Rummy isn't safe.

Bush is loyal to a fault. Face it if he hasn't canned Tennent he sure as hell isn't going to fire Rummy.

[Jac de Molay]

I don't know if Rummy's safe, either. If he does stay, he basically has zero credibility or gravitas. It's a tough lie.

I just saw some more released picture-one show that woman soldier grabbing a prone, naked prisoner on a leash. This just gets uglier and uglier by the day

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Oncle Boris
Where are you heading to? Do you think that the Convention allows torture just to determine the status of a prisoner?

Torture is ineffective in field interrrogation - there isn't time, and you can't rely on the accuracy of information obtained by torture unless you have independent corroboration. However, the combination of shock and relief at being captured and not killed often means prisoners will be a bit more talkative about what unit they're with and other useful tidbits of information beyond the perfunctory name, rank, service number and date of birth. Reality in the field is that you ask whatever questions you can to obtain tactical info, but you don't waste a lot of time or try to obtain information that is too complex.

[BeBMan]

Originally posted by Drake Tungsten

He must stay. He's a great example of someone who forgot the difference between self-confidence and arrogance.

There is no difference.

Look it up.

[MichaeltheGreat]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe


Bush is loyal to a fault. Face it if he hasn't canned Tennent he sure as hell isn't going to fire Rummy.

The question is how is this going to play out between now and November. Any claimed moral high ground in invading is getting a bit more tenuous to say the least, and these photos and our reaction to them are the best propaganda present we could give our enemies. This isn't the sort of result in Iraq that Bush wants as a background to his reelection effort.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Bush is loyal to a fault. Face it if he hasn't canned Tennent he sure as hell isn't going to fire Rummy.

He hasn't fired Tennent because Tennent would spill the beans.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ogie Oglethorpe
Who was your great uncle?.

Jack Snead. Was a pilot for a B-24.

[Ogie Oglethorpe]

I agree MtG, this gets political fast and is absolutely the worst possible propoganda we could provide to our enemies. But there is a history of GW supporting his cabinet members in public.

To my way of thinking, the point of whether the defense department has completely transparent wrt these abuses would be the only way Bush would call for Rummy's resignation. To date the DOD was ahead of these issues and was investigating them prior to the story breaking in news. If and when additional abuses/coverups come to light it might be a different story.

[Boris Godunov]

Now the Red Cross is reporting that the abuse is far more widespread than the administration has claimed, and that they were warning officials about it for months:

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20040507/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_redcross_dc_1

This is a ****ing disaster for the Coalition. Recovering from this PR nightmare with the Iraqi people is going to be incredibly difficult. After all the griping about such-and-such was undermining the peace effort, now we find it's our own military has shot itself in the foot.

[Fake Boris]

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat


Torture is ineffective in field interrrogation - there isn't time, and you can't rely on the accuracy of information obtained by torture unless you have independent corroboration. However, the combination of shock and relief at being captured and not killed often means prisoners will be a bit more talkative about what unit they're with and other useful tidbits of information beyond the perfunctory name, rank, service number and date of birth. Reality in the field is that you ask whatever questions you can to obtain tactical info, but you don't waste a lot of time or try to obtain information that is too complex.

So, brutalizing a prisoner evidently is illegal even before his status is known (that the point of my question, BTW).

[DanS]

Looks like Rumsfeld stays.

Americans Do Not Think Rumsfeld Should Resign
Public Divided Over Administration's Handling of Investigation

By Richard Morin and Claudia Deane
Washington Post Staff Writers
Friday, May 7, 2004; 12:00 PM

A large majority of Americans believe that embattled Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld should not resign over the Iraq prison scandal, but the public remains sharply divided over whether the administration moved quickly enough to investigate reports of abuse before they became public, according to a new Washington Post-ABC News poll.


Seven in 10 Americans said Rumsfeld should not be forced to quit, a view held by majorities of Republicans, Democrats and self-described political independents. The survey comes a day after President Bush gave Rumsfeld a vote of confidence, and as Rumsfeld faced stiff questioning by members of Congress enraged that they were kept in the dark about abuses at the Abu Ghraib prison near Baghdad.

As new details continue to emerge, the survey found that public views on the way Bush is handling the scandal are divided and not yet fully formed. Fewer than half -- 48 percent -- said they approve of the way the president is dealing with the issue while 35 percent disapprove. But 17 percent are undecided, a clear indication that many Americans are waiting for more information before coming to judgment.

The poll found even greater divisions over the way the administration handled reports of abuse before the scandal broke in the media last week. Four in 10 faulted the administration for failing to move quickly enough to investigate the reports while an identical proportion disagreed.

Americans also are divided over whether the administration made a good-faith effort to probe claims of abuse. Slightly more than four in 10 said the administration was seriously investigating the incidents before they were publicly reported last week -- but just as many said they were trying to "cover it up."

But there was no clear indication yet that the scandal has affected the public's overall attitudes toward the war in Iraq, which have been trending downward since the first of the year as the situation in Iraq has grown increasingly violent and unstable.

About half of the country continue to say the war was "worth fighting" while nearly as many disagree. And six in 10 said the U.S.-led occupation is bogged down in Iraq. That number is unchanged from a Post-ABC News survey conducted three weeks ago, though the proportion who believe the U.S. is "making good progress" dipped to 35 percent.

As the military and political situation in Iraq continues to deteriorate, the survey suggests that the prisoner abuse scandal has become another unwelcome surprise in Iraq, sharpening the deep partisan divide over the war and its aftermath and raising new doubts about the administration's management of the situation in Iraq.

Even though overall attitudes toward the war remain essentially unchanged, the proportion who believe that the administration has a clear plan in Iraq stands at 38 percent, down 7 percentage points in the past three weeks, while the proportion who see the administration adrift in Iraq stood at 57 percent, a new high in Post-ABC News polling.

A total of 802 randomly selected adults were interviewed Wednesday and Thursday for this survey. The margin of sampling error for the overall results is plus or minus 4 percentage points.

Americans have recoiled in disgust over the flood of graphic photos that were published in the past week and appear to clearly document physical abuse and humiliation of Iraqi prisoners by U.S. military personnel. Still, six in 10 believe these were isolated incidents, while fewer than a third said such abuse was more widespread

But there was no doubt in the public's mind about the seriousness of the reported incidents. Seven in 10 said the reports were "a big deal" and half said they were either "upset" or "angry" about the incidents.

Two-thirds said the soldiers involved should be charged with a crime. A slight majority also believed higher-level officers should be held responsible for allowing a breakdown in discipline.

Republicans and Democrats largely agree on the seriousness of the allegations, the scope of the problem and the future of the secretary of defense, but differ dramatically when it comes to Bush's role in the process and the wisdom of the Iraq invasion in general.

Across the partisan spectrum, majorities of Republicans, Democrats and political independents said this kind of abuse is unacceptable, no matter what the situation, and about half in each group said they are either upset or angry about it.

At least six in ten in each group said that the soldiers involved should be charged with a crime. But majorities of Republicans (82 percent), Democrats (58 percent) and independents (73 percent) said Rumsfeld should not be forced out of his job over the prison scandal, but also agree the reported incidents are serious.

When it comes to Bush and his role in the controversy, agreement vanished. Roughly six in 10 Democrats said the administration moved too slowly in investigating the report, and were mainly trying to cover up the scandal. At the same time, an even larger proportion of Republicans -- about seven in ten -- said the administration acted quickly, and were making a genuine effort to investigate the problem and not cover it up. Independents roughly split on both issues.

Neither have the two parties drawn any closer in their views of the bigger picture in Iraq. The large majority of Republicans continue to say that the war with Iraq was worth fighting and the United States is making good progress, while the large majority of Democrats said the war was not worth the costs and worry that the United States is getting bogged down. Political independents divide more evenly on the issues: half said the war was worth it, half disagree. Still, six in ten said they fear the U.S. has been slowed in its progress.