Is Russia really any better with Democracy/Capitialism?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Lonestar,

Don't forget that we also attacked Germany on a pretext in WW1.

Yes, but:

1: Germany was conducting unrestricted submarine warfare

and

2: We didn't act alone.

[mrmitchell]

Not really. The Soviet Union always lagged far behind the United States in economic strength, and the US possessed a FAR greater share of world GNP and world manufacturing, as well as a per capita GNP of more than double that of the USSR. Economic and industrial strength translates into long term military strength. It's true that the Soviet Union maintained conventional GROUND forces (but not air or naval forces) superior to any other individual nation (at least until the mid 1980s), but this power was only relevant in the short run, and was achieved at the expense of greater economic growth (and thus at the expense of long term potential power).

If the want to talk about nuclear weapons, then the US was either markedly superior, or both sides possessed a sufficient amount of weapons to totally destroy the other, depending on the time period in question.

I didn't mention anything long term. I just said, "in parts, the USSR was the leader".

If we want to talk about nuclear weapons, the Soviets had our asses ready to hand on a silver platter, but so did we for them. Even if they did have thousands more than we did at times, those thousands don't even matter, it would only take far less than what we had to annihlate the whole goddamn earth.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras


Why are you so fast to turn into a hair-splitting Clinton when it comes to Russia, as ooposed to the righteous champion of "legality" in international affairs that do not involve Russia?

Why you didn't answer simple questions?
Was it a illegal? Was it against an international law? Was it an agression, an act of war, etc.?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Saras
Oh, and it was Iceland that first recognized our independence (January 1991). So there

I always thought that it was the president of RSFSR, this dumbass Yeltzin, who signed such act few months before collapse of the the USSR.
I'm not really sure that Iceland could make such diplomatic move against USSR.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Vince278


I'm pleased to report that I have returned from the re-education camp at the lumbermill and it was an unqualified success. I had all those Ruskie's singing "God Bless America" and "America the Beautiful" before I left.

Ruskies in Siberia doesn't speak English and can't sing American songs (except "Yankees, go home" and Queen's "We will, we will, **** you "). More probably this doc did something wrong with your head and now you have hallucinations time after time.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Last Conformist
Serb: You're just jealous 'cos we make better vodka than you!

Next thing you'll tell me, is that vodka is a Swedish word.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lord Merciless
Don't worry. Russkies will sooner or later die out and be replaced by the Chinese.

Don't worry. You will die out and be replaced by Chinese, Mexicans and Arabs, much earlier.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by mrmitchell


I didn't mention anything long term. I just said, "in parts, the USSR was the leader".

If we want to talk about nuclear weapons, the Soviets had our asses ready to hand on a silver platter, but so did we for them. Even if they did have thousands more than we did at times, those thousands don't even matter, it would only take far less than what we had to annihlate the whole goddamn earth.

the Soviet Union never, ever, had more nukes than us.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Serb


I always thought that it was the president of RSFSR, this dumbass Yeltzin, who signed such act few month before collapse of the USSR.
I'm not really sure that Iceland could make such diplomatic move against USSR.

Strictly speaking, the USA never recognized Russia's illegal occupation of the Baltic states after the deal-cutting with Hitler.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar
I'm hoping your kidding

Nope.


I seriously do not believe so. Hell, they didn't even reach the "oh God, oh God, it's the end of the world" point until the '70's, up until then we could have concievably stomped them flat and came out signifigantly better. (Which is not to say I think that would have been a good idea, for either us or them)

[Lonestar]

And, amazingly, half of those are "reserve/retired.".

Reserve being commie speak for "archaic and/or useless."

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Comrade Tassadar


Actually, its commiespeak for "Secretly active" As in: "No, there is no danger of our stockpile being stolen. They are retired."

But regardless, the Russian nuclear stockpile has been larger than the US from *at least* 1978-1985

/me hangs head in shame


I accept it's possible I have been mistaken.

I also accept that American SLBMs and ICBMs can fly farther, faster, and more accurately than Russian ones.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar


Alcohol is my anti-drug.

They allow you to drink? I thought you're with the navy intelligence or smth.

I was refering to holding off on opening a second front in France, one which Stalin was begging for, incidently.

Like you didn't hold off it untill the last minute when the outcome of war was clear enough.

Alright. Thanks for stopping Napoleon,

You are welcome.

Because, unlike a certain other country. *cough* Russia! *cough* we don't intentionaly go after civilian targets.

Don't make me laugh. WTF your artillery is doing right now in Iraq? Or perhaps Iraqis cities are non-civilian targets or your artillery shells considering as precisious weapons? (I doubt, only Russians have such technology).

Pfff....what about the mass deportations of the assorted caucus nationalities to Central Asia?

What about them? Chechens were deported to Khazakstan during WW2, since they fought against their country. No matter what you'll say, it was a crime. It is a crime when representatives of certain ethnic group take arms and join invaders in war against the state. And government deported them to stop thier support of nazi, to prevent them joining nazis forces.
It was a war, God damn it, and it was a wartime measure.

What about the mysterious disappearence of the Volga Germans?

1) Why mysterious? They still live there. 1941 they were deported when nazis were just several hundred kilometers away from them and it was clear that this territory will be lost to nazis soon. It was done, because of known nazi's policy to draft 'wolksdeutche' into their army from occupied lands . The Soviet government at first year of war, always tried to evacuate as much property and population from territories that considered will be lost soon, as possible. It's pretty logical arpoach in a wartime. Do you think they just could left thousands of "wolksdeutche", knowing that nazis will force them to take up arms and fight vs. Soviets?
Your goverment deported thousands of Americans with Japanese roots, despite there was no a single chance of Japanese invasion of North American continent.

2) We were talking about natives. Volga's Germans it's not exactly a native population of this region. They are decsendents of German immigrants who populate this area since Cathrine times.

3) All those people who were deported during WW2, returned to their lands after the war. They were not thrown to reservations and slowly exterminated, like you did with Native Americans.

What about the occupation of Yakut land in Siberia? (Free our Inuit bretheren!)

What about them? Yakut Autonomus Region is the largest "subject of federation (in US, it stands for the "state") of Russian Federation. Not a single inch of their land were took from them and there was not a single reservation for them (or for anyone else). Yakuts are absolute majority of Yakut Autonomus Region. Like in all authonomus regions of Russia, native population maintain its traditions and culture and have two official languages- the language of the federation (Russian) and their native language. And they write their official papers, broadcast TV, print newspapers, write street signs, etc. on those two languages. So, wtf are you talking about? What kind of occupation? Can you name me a single state in US where Native Americans is the majority of pupulation, where they maintain their culture and traditions, and where their native language considered as one of the two official languages of this state?

What about stomping down on National groups that do wish to secede?

Wtf are you talking about? If it's Chechens again, then for your knowledge on referendum about this issue, ABSOLUTE (about 90%) majority of them voted for staying in federation. Why do you considering gangs of bandids and terrorists as legal representatives of entire people? The people made their choice during referendum. This choice is clear. And I don't see why our goverment should care much about opinion of f*cking terrorists. Does your or any other government care about opinion of terrorists and bandits?

What about handling said groups by f--king leveling their cities?

WTF?
If you're talking about Chechnya again, then
for your information:
1) Chechens never build cities. They lived in a small villages called "auls".

2) Groznyi is the Russian city, founded by Russians in 19th century (its name originate from fortress "Groznaya" (Terrible) and it was Russians who lived there till Chechens started to cut their throats in early 90's.

3) You, as 99,9% of westerners have no idea about Chechnya, Chechen-Russian relationship, the history of this relationships and do not know why Russians came into such sh!thole as Chechnya at the first place. (hint: no one really cared about oil a couple of centuries ago. Back then, Chechnya was an absolute sh!thole, there was nothing to take in this land, only rocks.)

What about the enforced "Russification", and the subsequent oppression of religions under both Tsarist and Communist Russia?

Wtf are you talking about? What opression? What Russification? You've beaten childrens of Native Americans held in reservation, if they spoke on their native language. You did everything to exterminate them and their culture. Where is the Native population of the territory you occupy now?
In Russia, none native ethnic group was treated this way. NONE. They still maintain their cultures, languages, traditions and have the same rights.
Just how long ago you've abolished the segregation?
You did abolish it, in all states, right?

I don't claim America has the most blindingly fair history, but Russia's hands are every bit as dirty as ours, and, if desease had as big a factor in your expansion they'd probably be dirtier. We're just honest enough with ourselves and others to admit it.

Russian expansion was absolutely different from American or any other expansions. ABSOLUTELY. So even don't try to paint Russia in the same colours as US.

Chechnya comes to mind. I'm afraid I don't know the Russian spelling.

You spell it absolutely correct, but the problem is, that such country doesn't exist and NEVER existed. You really have to read something about the history of this ethnic group. They have a very... hm... unique culture.

Because we've had a grand total of one civil war and you've had endless coups, revolutions, and civil wars in your history?

No, because your state based on expoltation of others and sooner or later it will fall.

Yep, I know who's more self destructing.

Me too.

Or maybe we're inclined to mind our own damn buisness. Remember, we're a nation of Draft-dodgers. Why do you think so many Germans came over to the states in the 1800s?

However....

Starting from1798:

1798: The quasi-war with France
1801-1815: The Barbary Wars
1846-47: The Mexican War (Don't laugh...their army was three times ours' size)
1860-65: The Civil War, largest General War anywhere since the Napoleonic wars.
1898: War with Spain
1898-1904: The Phillippine Insurrection
1906-1922: A million fricking interventions in Central America
1916: The Mexican Expedition
1962-1973: 'Nam

Followed by the Dominacn Republic, Grenada, Panama, Haiti, etc.

Well, aside various punishing raids, for two centuries it's how many wars that you fought alone? Three?
Russia had dozen within a single decade sometimes.

No country ever abstains in the UNSC unless that's their quiet approval and you know it.

No, I don't know. If someone abstains, it just means he doesn't pleased with two other choices. Had SU voted "Yes", then your claim about blessing would have been corect. It wasn't a blessing, Soviets just turned around and wistle.
But, OK, first war was justified, in accordance with international law, since Iraq acted as agressor in the first place.

History will judge that.

Not a chance.
If you'll break into your neighbour's house and kick his ass, because you considering him a bastard who is beating his wife or think that he is planting something against you (perhaps to blow-up your car or smth) you will be arrested and thrown in jail. No one would care about your moral ground, you'll be arrested if such act is an illegal by current law. And no one will rehabilitate you after 100 years, even if such act will not be considered as crime anymore.

Chechnya,

Which international law, says that country can't fight bandits and terrorists on their own territory?

Modavia, continued occupation of Central Asian countries.

Russia occupy Moldavia and Central Asian countries!!!

Also in our news: Martians attack the New-Yourk city!!!
If you think if country A has military bases on territory of country B, it means that country A occupy country B, then US is absolute champion of occupation. Because no one else has so many millitary bases on territories of other countries as US has.

And this is with your military power diminished. Before that we had Afghanistan, China, Hungary, Czech Republic, all those "liberated" eastern Europen countries, and the Baltic states.

From legal (I'm not taling about morality now,) point of view, those invasions were more or less legalized. USSR was invited there by recognized govermnets of those countries. It's something that you lack in case of Yugoslavia and second Gulf war.
China? WTF? When SU invaded China?

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar
And, amazingly, half of those are "reserve/retired.".

It's true only for 1986-1997.
For 1945-1987 this statistic is for nukes that were in active, operational forces. And in 1985 USSR had more than 1,6 times more nukes than USA, so your claim was wrong.
Good work Tass.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Lonestar


* Lonestar hangs head in shame


I accept it's possible I have been mistaken.

*Serb is shocked.

I also accept that American SLBMs and ICBMs can fly farther, faster, and more accurately than Russian ones.

Not a chance.