Why God??!!

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by VJ
I'm too lazy to read the opening post. Is it a standard DL or a modified krishnabot of some sort?

I say a better Krishnabot. Unlike Krishnabot, he has individual thought

[alva]

Noone denies the historicity of Jesus

Huh??

At best, IMO there's a 50/50% change the dude was real... and he certainly wans't what they made him out to be.

[Q Classic]

i think the odds of jesus being real are better than 50-50.

[Flandrien]

Originally posted by dejon
Question though - What would we call the hardest level of Civ3 if not Diety?

maybe call it deity

[Gangerolf]

Protestants pwn all

[Sava]

The only correct answer is "I don't know".

Every other answer is incorrect.

[SlowwHand]

Sava. Here's your hand-basket, ready for travel.

[Jac de Molay]

Originally posted by alva

Noone denies the historicity of Jesus

Huh??

At best, IMO there's a 50/50% change the dude was real... and he certainly wans't what they made him out to be.

50/50? You give the myth too much credit. Maybe 10/90 there was actually a Jesus that remotely resembles that described in the New Testament. You could plug in a lot of the attributes that the New Testament gives him and come out with Buddha.

Anyway, I'm a deist and that's it. I keep a special place in my book collection for the Bible and Koran right in between Mein Kampf and American Psycho. They're both some of the most violent, vindictive, misogynist, misanthopic readings I've ever come across.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Sky never answered my question.

Why do you think you are right, in sifting out the right from the wrong, and finding that religion falls short?

Religion makes claims that are:

1) unsupported by evidence

2) sometimes in direct contradiction with proven scientific principles

3) based on "faith"

I've never seen a reason why I should believe in Christianity instead of, say, Buddhism.

"I contend that we are all atheists; I simply believe in one fewer god than you do. When you understand why you don't believe in all the other gods, you'll understand why I don't believe in yours."

- some guy who's name I forget

BK, why don't you believe that the universe is breathed out by Vishnu?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Young Skywalker, he has much to learn in the ways of the Force.

Nope. I just enjoy biting these ones

[Kuciwalker]

In answer to your first qualm:

Is the Bible the word of God?
I believe the Bible is the Word of God because it rings true to me.
First of all I would like to ask you a few questions.

OK.

Who do you think Jesus is?

I think he was a religious leader and moral philosopher who lived about two millenia ago.

Who does he claim he is?

The son of God.

The Bible has about 40 different authors. Yes I admit the Bible was written by men however the Bible reads as if it is written by one author.

I'd have to wonder about that - I think some of the reason a lot of it sounds similar is because the translations occured at the same time.

As I have said, the bible was created over a period of about 3000 years, yet it all makes sense?

Some people don't think it makes sense. For example, most of Leviticus does not.

The vast majority of these authors did not know each other.

But they'd read the works of the previous authors.

I would like you to prove to me that the Bible isn't the word of God?!

Why do I have to prove that it wasn't? Is there any evidence that it is?

I'd like you to prove to me that the Quran isn't the word of Allah.

Have you even read it?

Yes.

[/q]Have you read all of it? Not just random quotes from various people?[/q]

No, but we've done a study of large sections of it in English class.

2. In answer to your objection to the historical accuracy of the four gospels.
First of all there are also non-christian sources about Jesus and what he did. Two of the most notable were Josephus (a jewish historian: See "The Works of Josephus") and Tacitus (A Roman Historian see "Annals"). Now onto the gospels: first of all if you had four eyewitnesses to a murder who all testified against the defendant then that defendant would go to jail. Next point: Matthew was a tax collector, another was a fisherman and another was a doctor (can't remember exactly who the others were). Infact I would argue that the disciples themselves were some of the biggest doubters of Christ and his claims until after the resurrection. In Luke 8:22-25 there is a massive storm on the water, Jesus and his disciples are in the boat, they fear for their lives so they wake up Jesus, he calms the storm and then rebukes his disciples, "Where is your faith?" He asked his disciples.
In fear and amazement they asked one another, "Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him". Other examples include the feeding of the 5000, even initially after Jesus' death the disciples did not believe it was true and till Jesus actually appeared to them and showed them his wounds.

I don't doubt the existance of Jesus, just the veracity of the claims about his miracles, especially given that they appear to be scientifically impossible.

So the disciples were probably even more sceptical than you

Nope, they accepted that God existed.

yet after his death they began a faith which now has approximately 1 billion followers. There are many references to historical places in the gospels which have been traced by historians and found to be true.

The gospels have never been found to be true in all aspects, just in that Jesus existed, and he was crucified.

Outside sources confirm the Trojan War, but was Achilles actually invulnerable?

This probably ties in with your next objection about German soldier dying for a lie etc. For starters that is a pretty terrible connection you made considering these guys are from completely different contexts. Germany has just suffered a massive depression, the country has gone through hell and back, the people are crying out for a strong leader, I'm sure that many soldiers knew it was a lie but enjoyed it. Germany had the potential to profit out of WWII. On the other hand, the people who wrote the gospels had no motive for profit whatsoever. The only payment they received for their writing was execution and persecution. Furthermore Jesus appeared not only to the disciples after his death but to hundreds of people who were still alive when Paul was arguing this and they didn't contest that. I think it would require more faith to think that the writers of the gospels were deluded delinquints who were experiencing one massive hallucination and were hypnotised as there were just too many people who could verify that Jesus was raised from the dead. Too many people saw him after his death. Even in that small room where Jesus first appeared there was quite a substantial group of people.

My point was that people can be deceived, and people can deceive themselves.

3. Concerning Suicide Cults
Was Jesus teaching Suicide?

My point was that those people not only deceived themselves (something we both agree on), but they died for it. Thus, people can be willing to die for even false beliefss.

4. Jesus is God
I believe that this will also take care of your question LDiCesare. First of all lets see who Jesus by his actions. He is a man running out the middle east creating a whole new religious movement.

So was Mohammed.

Healing the sick and raising the dead. This shows that he isn't your average human being, BUT people will say, "didn't he use that by God's authority?". Yes he did, he was God in human form. Now, he has been called, The Son of Man, The Son of God, The Word, The Light and he called himself "I AM" which is in reference to what God called himself when talking to Moses in the desert and burning bush.
In Luke 22:69-70 Jesus is being questioned by the Pharisees as to his identity:
"But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
Then in Mark 14:62-64 this scene is shown. Also in Matthew 26:64-65.
So Jesus alludes to being "The Son of Man" in Daniel Chapter 7:13-14. In John Chapter One it says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darnkess, but the darkness has not understood it." Then it goes on and finally links this to Jesus. Read the chapter if you want the whole picture.
After all this, Jesus' claim to be God is made crystal clear in Hebrews Chapter 1:5-9
"For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your father?"
Or again,
"I will be his father,
and he will be my Son?"
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him.
...But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness:
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy"
If that isn't enough for you, then Isaiah prophecies the coming of a suffering servant who will bear our sins, read Isaiah 52:13- ch53:12.
Also Psalm 22 Alludes to Christ. In fact there are many more quotes in the Bible where Jesus claims to be God such as John10:31-39.
You may argue that Jesus is mad, yet he could rationally argue and debate with some of the nations top thinkers of the times.

You haven't yet proved that the miracles occured - how can you cite them as evidence for his divinity? I would accept Jesus' divinity, if proof of his miracles was given.

NO i haven't read the koran, but I have read excerpts. I have read books on Islam and other religions and I can say without a doubt in my heart that Christianity sets itself apart from other faiths through the teachings of Jesus and The Bible. So we have four eyewitnesses recording that Jesus claims he is God. Some of the titles he is called such as Son of Man allude to prophetic dreams in the Old testament and concerning Son of God...Jesus is The Son of God and also God. Seems confusing, yes and that is because we are only human. But it is obvious that from the quotes I have told you, Jesus does also claim to be God. Now even without these eyewitnesses we still have the non-historical sources that outline who Jesus claimed to be and what he did, plus we have the other books of the New Testament. Plus we have the entire Old Testament which points to the coming of Christ. So this book written by 40 different people yet still reads the same is alot more significant than the tales of Gilgamesh.

Because more people thought it was true, it must be true?

What if I got forty-one different people to write things that read the same and supported each other?

It is proven that there was a historical figure called Jesus of Nazareth. No historian denies that our dating system revolves around Jesus' life and no historian denies that Jesus existed as there is just too lmuch evidence (I can't include everything so I suggest you do your own reading as this is a life and death matter for you). So Jesus definately existed. Numerous accounts of who he claimed to be, he himself claimed he was God so where does that put you? Can you prove to me that all these people are wrong? That Jesus never existed? That he wasn't crucified? Sure the Pharoahs claimed to be gods but then they didn't do all the stuff Jesus did and they don't have such a massive following as Jesus does today. So why don't you prove to me that God doesn't exist? Prove to me that Jesus didn't die for our sins? Prove to me that The Bible isn't The Word of God? If you can do that then you will make me an unbeliever! lol.

No one doubts Jesus' existance, or even the basics of the story. What I doubt are the miracles. There is no evidence, beyond what some people wrote. There is nothing more compelling about Christianity than about Islam - and Islam has a massive following as well. The fact that people believe something to be true, does not make it true. Otherwise, before people there would have been no God (ironically, this appears to be the case, that people created God in their own image ).

Funnily enough some of the most adamant non-believers who set out to take down Christianity were converted. Such as Saul from Tarsus who later was called Paul and who wrote a substantial amount of Books that are now in the New Testament. He was a Pharisee and he hated Christians with a passion until Christ appeared to him and turned him. We're talking about someone who executed and tortured Christians for a living and got enjoyment out of it, and yet he became one of the most prolific writers of the new testament. Now that's a miracle. Are you going to try and argue to me that he was fooled? That he was hypnotised? I think that argument would requre more faith then my belief in the existence of God.

Saul, however, was already religious. Once you have accepted the existence of God, it is not as much a leap to believe in the Son of God.

[alva]

yet after his death they began a faith which now has approximately 1 billion followers.

Hmm, of course if you just consider everyone in, say, Europe to be christian, numbers add up rather quickly don't they.

I too am an official christian because at the time I was born, it was not done not to bapthise a child.
Now, it is impossible for me to undo this. I can -symbolicly- be un-bapthised but that what it is, a symbol as it does not count for Rome. Once a christian is forever a christian...

[LDiCesare]

was Achilles actually invulnerable?

Of course he wasn't. He was killed by an arrow. The real question is whether Paris shot it or Appollo, in the Paris version, Appollo guided the shot. The versions vary. Since there are several contradicting versions, then it must be true that Achilles was in fact killed by an arrow, and that Appollo was involved in it (either shooting or guiding the arrow).
Therefore, using BK's own argumentation, it is evident that Appollo exists. Therefrom, the whole Greek pantheon probably exists too.

[Sirotnikov]

Why is Judiasm not an option?

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Black Knight84


Yes some don't, but then some do.

Some of us also believe in God the Father, and God the Holy Spirit also, which would make the simple answer "Jesus" inadequate. Frankly I looked around for an "Other" category and was dissapointed by its absence.

In my time I've found many who profess this "salvation by faith alone" use this belief as a cover for a variety of rather un-christian attitudes. As a kid (circa 1960) I got beat up by some of these "faithies" for calling them to task about racial bigotry. Evidently the avocation of love for God's children regardless of race was then considered a "works" thing and therefore unworthy of "faithies". I've been told by "faithies" that love, charity, humility, and pacifism were the sort of worldly things that Christ just hated and simply weren't good enough to take into account on the day of final judgement. I've been punched in the face for having the temerity to recite Mark 5 to a group of "faithies". Some have even suggested that it doesn't matter what a person does in life, so long as one avows faith in Christ. Yes, I've even encountered one who had the courage to suggest that a Nazis concentration camp guard, provided that he accepted Christ as his savior, would be taken to heaven in favor of someone who was guilty of the error of believing that both "works" and "faith" were desired.

IIRC there are passages in the New Testament in which Christ clearly states that in a true believers life the adoption of true faith should automatically lead to proper Christian conduct. If you take into account all that Christ said about love, charity, humility, sincerity, fidelity, temperance, and pacifism it's pretty clear that good works are also required of a believer. Those who do not accept this, who profess faith, and have an adequate knowledge of the scriptures are hypocrits. We all know what Christ thought about hypocrits.