Why God??!!

[Al B. Sure!]

throw him to the lions

[Mr. Nice Guy]

Re: Why God??!!

Originally posted by Black Knight84
Science is great, and it has alot of stuff going for it. I mean I'm glad I'm living on this side of the scientific revolution! I just thought I would point out that people would probably have to get more faith to believe in there being NO God then people who believe there is a God. Science can't answer questions of Philosophy. Science attempts to answer the question, "How". It is an amazing fluke, that the universe was created? Or, God created the Universe? You would have more of a chance taking a lego man and his house all broken up, putting it all in a bag and shaking it until all the pieces fit together then you would have of the first life cells being created in the mud by chance. Indeed, if the 'dials' of the universe were set even a millifraction lower it would be a cold desolate place with no life whatsoever! Science is great for explaining 'how': the big bang theory, evolution etc. When we look at science and what it has done we can realise that we haven't even scratched the tip of the iceberg. If evolution was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is true tomorrow then the existence of God would be no less, as we would have just discovered how we were created (concerning the book of Genesis I will come back to it) Human Philosophy attempts to answer "why" and to my mind, can be at times extremely confusing and I wonder if the Philosophers really had much of an understanding. Bakunin and Nietzche despised God and Christians for a good reason in that due to Sin even Christians screw up..big time. You look at the crusades, the middle ages and even today's 'tele-evangelists' promoting this 'prosperity gospel'. Yes ladies and gentlemen humanity is great at distorting everything because we ourselves are distorted beings. It is a sad fact that no religion seems to take this into account apart from Christianity. The Bible (when read in context and there are people who really try to understand what the Bible is saying and not what we want it to say). It doesn't take a genius to look around and see how messed up the world can be, so I must ask, if there is a God who is so pure and perfect. Who is too holy to look upon then how can we expect to even begin to impress him with the deeds we do?? I'm not going to start slamming people with Bible verses, as I hate just taking one liners and slamming them into the face of people, as that allows the quote to be taken out of context and mis-interpreted. I will say a few though, Romans 3:10-11 "There is no one righteous, not even one: there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God". Paul is presenting an argument that for the first two chapters sets out what God's plan with the world is and how sinful humans are, he says in Romans 2:7 he says, "for those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life" yet later we see he says there is no one righteous. I would suggest reading the entire book of Romans and talking to a minister about it for an understanding but basically he is arguing that you can't be saved by 'works' only by 'faith in Christ'. See Romans 3:21-31. I have only touched upon some very general themes of the Christian faith however it differs from all other faiths. All other faiths believe that you can be saved by 'working your way up the ladder'. For Islam, following the five pillars of islam is essential, some of those include fasting and prayer 5 times a day. A holy pilgrimage to Mecca will pretty much guarantee you a place in heaven. In Buddhism, "YOU" must practise ways of ridding yourself of your corrupted parts in order to enter into a permanent state of ethereal bliss, in Judaism you have to follow the Old Testament Laws in order to be saved, but the fact is I can guarantee that not one jew (apart from Jesus) has followed every single one. Even "Catholicism" in it's most traditional sense put's more of a emphasis on works! Confession, attending mass, the fancy rituals-something very similar to other faiths. Please understand that God is not interested on what we 'show' on the outside, he is interested in what is in our hearts, and unfortunately Sin spews forth and the only way to negate that is to put our faith and trust in Jesus as he took the punishment we all deserve and saved us from our Sins. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that Catholics aren't Christians, there are many who are! I would argue that "Catholicism" seems to not only be based on what The Bible says but on a whole load of other literary works which contradict The Bible, thus it can become a little confusing. I would like to stress that The Bible is the only book that is the "Word of God" everything else revolves around that, if you preach something that contradicts The Bible then stop it (now I could go into the dead sea scrolls and the apocrypha but maybe someone else would like to) The fact is we are hypocrites, we say one thing, we do another. We may preach against adultery and then we go out and think lustful thoughts and go through with our actions of lust. We know it is wrong to steal and swear but we still do it, why? Because we can't help it, we are human. God knows this, that is why we have a chance of being saved. As a Christian we are saved in faith through Christ but as Paul says in Romans chapter 3:31 "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law". Why? Because the law makes us conscious of our sin and it helps us grow and attempt to live the way Christ did.. of course I'm not saying that we can't eat meat on fridays because that is a ritual that no longer needs to be done (sure you can do it if you feel the need but you don't earn brownie points). In fact we don't earn brownie points with God by observing any of the law, but we do it as Christians because we want to respond to the Grace God has given us (read Colossians). By putting Jesus into the centre of your life and accepting him as your saviour you are saved. What follows then is a life long transformation that ends in heaven, where we change, we try not to slander others, murder etc because that is not a part of Christ's identity and thus we need to try and work towards that~keep in mind as a Christian why would you not want to do it anyhow? Faith without works is dead, but we must always remember that the works don't save us. Other religions seem to put more emphasis on the 'works' side of it.

Now: Quickly going back to Genesis:
I don't think evolution poses a problem for reading genesis. Christians over the years have tried to make Genesis into a lab report of how God made the world. I think the first chapters of the Bible are written to explain WHO made us and WHY, not HOW and WHEN: I think Genesis is answering the philosophical question. There's the poetic form to the words, there's the different order of Creation in Chapter one to chapter two with each one making its own theological point. There seems to be a definite polemic to it as though it is being written specifically combat the other creationist accounts that seemed to be going on in the ancient world. So while I think it is entirely possible for the God described in The Bible to create the world in 6 days or in an instant, I'm not convinced that it must be read that way; I think the jury is still out. What Genesis does definately affirm is that you and I are not some gigantic fluke. You are not just some meaningless bag of chemicals waiting to return to the dust. You have been designed and purposely made and there is something about us that sets us apart from the rest of what has been made. Somehow we bear the stamp of God himself! Jellyfish, dogs, and rocks cannot know God but you and I can and should ackowledge the one who has made us.

So why God? Why Jesus? Why not Buddha or Muhammod's God? Why the Christian God?

You need to explore that one yourself.

I believe in Jesus, I don't blindly believe, I think about why and I welcome anyone to challenge what I have said so in turn I can further reflect on your arguments.
Here are a few final questions and statements I put forward to you?
1. The Bible is the word of God.
Many people will dispute this and I look forward to hearing the arguments. Let me say this: The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God. In Christianity The Old Testament is not 'that old part that no christian reads!'. It is all the word. It is amazing that such a book still survives! There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great! The Bible was written over a period of a few thousand years by over 40 authors, of whom there is barely a connection (with the exception of a few New Testament writers). Yet over this 3000 year period this book has formed with prophecies in the Old Testament which Jesus fulfillled. It all makes sense when read, connections between the Old Testament and New Testament are all over the place.
That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred.
2. The Bible is historically accurate
The four gospels are eyewitness testimonies of the life of Christ. They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did.
People may argue that the writers could have made it up that Jesus was God and did that for their religion, well first of all: The books were written not 90 years after the death of Christ but were written within 30 years of his death. Paul's letters began to be written only 4-5 years after his death and there were people alive then who would have contested what the books said but no one did.
Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie? A lie that they made up? Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth?
The Good news is that God has not left us floundering in the dark. The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe. The fact that Jesus got up from being dead double underlines who he is. God. Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information.
3. Here is an awesome book I have read, it was written by a journalist who actually started out as an atheist and then began exploring the Christian faith and converted. The book is called, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It is a great read for Non-Christians and Christians alike. Anyhow I think I have said enough. Bye all. Hope this makes sense...

Whew!

Amen to that, my brother!

[RGBVideo]

I'm too lazy to read the opening post. Is it a standard DL or a modified krishnabot of some sort?

[The Mad Monk]

Re: Why God??!!

Originally posted by Black Knight84
Science is great, and it has alot of stuff going for it. I mean I'm glad I'm living on this side of the scientific revolution! I just thought I would point out that people would probably have to get more faith to believe in there being NO God then people who believe there is a God. Science can't answer questions of Philosophy. Science attempts to answer the question, "How". It is an amazing fluke, that the universe was created? Or, God created the Universe? You would have more of a chance taking a lego man and his house all broken up, putting it all in a bag and shaking it until all the pieces fit together then you would have of the first life cells being created in the mud by chance. Indeed, if the 'dials' of the universe were set even a millifraction lower it would be a cold desolate place with no life whatsoever! Science is great for explaining 'how': the big bang theory, evolution etc. When we look at science and what it has done we can realise that we haven't even scratched the tip of the iceberg. If evolution was proved beyond a shadow of a doubt that it is true tomorrow then the existence of God would be no less, as we would have just discovered how we were created (concerning the book of Genesis I will come back to it) Human Philosophy attempts to answer "why" and to my mind, can be at times extremely confusing and I wonder if the Philosophers really had much of an understanding. Bakunin and Nietzche despised God and Christians for a good reason in that due to Sin even Christians screw up..big time. You look at the crusades, the middle ages and even today's 'tele-evangelists' promoting this 'prosperity gospel'. Yes ladies and gentlemen humanity is great at distorting everything because we ourselves are distorted beings. It is a sad fact that no religion seems to take this into account apart from Christianity. The Bible (when read in context and there are people who really try to understand what the Bible is saying and not what we want it to say). It doesn't take a genius to look around and see how messed up the world can be, so I must ask, if there is a God who is so pure and perfect. Who is too holy to look upon then how can we expect to even begin to impress him with the deeds we do?? I'm not going to start slamming people with Bible verses, as I hate just taking one liners and slamming them into the face of people, as that allows the quote to be taken out of context and mis-interpreted. I will say a few though, Romans 3:10-11 "There is no one righteous, not even one: there is no one who understands, no one who seeks God". Paul is presenting an argument that for the first two chapters sets out what God's plan with the world is and how sinful humans are, he says in Romans 2:7 he says, "for those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honour and immortality, he will give eternal life" yet later we see he says there is no one righteous. I would suggest reading the entire book of Romans and talking to a minister about it for an understanding but basically he is arguing that you can't be saved by 'works' only by 'faith in Christ'. See Romans 3:21-31. I have only touched upon some very general themes of the Christian faith however it differs from all other faiths. All other faiths believe that you can be saved by 'working your way up the ladder'. For Islam, following the five pillars of islam is essential, some of those include fasting and prayer 5 times a day. A holy pilgrimage to Mecca will pretty much guarantee you a place in heaven. In Buddhism, "YOU" must practise ways of ridding yourself of your corrupted parts in order to enter into a permanent state of ethereal bliss, in Judaism you have to follow the Old Testament Laws in order to be saved, but the fact is I can guarantee that not one jew (apart from Jesus) has followed every single one. Even "Catholicism" in it's most traditional sense put's more of a emphasis on works! Confession, attending mass, the fancy rituals-something very similar to other faiths. Please understand that God is not interested on what we 'show' on the outside, he is interested in what is in our hearts, and unfortunately Sin spews forth and the only way to negate that is to put our faith and trust in Jesus as he took the punishment we all deserve and saved us from our Sins. Now I'm not going to sit here and say that Catholics aren't Christians, there are many who are! I would argue that "Catholicism" seems to not only be based on what The Bible says but on a whole load of other literary works which contradict The Bible, thus it can become a little confusing. I would like to stress that The Bible is the only book that is the "Word of God" everything else revolves around that, if you preach something that contradicts The Bible then stop it (now I could go into the dead sea scrolls and the apocrypha but maybe someone else would like to) The fact is we are hypocrites, we say one thing, we do another. We may preach against adultery and then we go out and think lustful thoughts and go through with our actions of lust. We know it is wrong to steal and swear but we still do it, why? Because we can't help it, we are human. God knows this, that is why we have a chance of being saved. As a Christian we are saved in faith through Christ but as Paul says in Romans chapter 3:31 "Do we, then, nullify the law by this faith? Not at all! Rather, we uphold the law". Why? Because the law makes us conscious of our sin and it helps us grow and attempt to live the way Christ did.. of course I'm not saying that we can't eat meat on fridays because that is a ritual that no longer needs to be done (sure you can do it if you feel the need but you don't earn brownie points). In fact we don't earn brownie points with God by observing any of the law, but we do it as Christians because we want to respond to the Grace God has given us (read Colossians). By putting Jesus into the centre of your life and accepting him as your saviour you are saved. What follows then is a life long transformation that ends in heaven, where we change, we try not to slander others, murder etc because that is not a part of Christ's identity and thus we need to try and work towards that~keep in mind as a Christian why would you not want to do it anyhow? Faith without works is dead, but we must always remember that the works don't save us. Other religions seem to put more emphasis on the 'works' side of it.

Now: Quickly going back to Genesis:
I don't think evolution poses a problem for reading genesis. Christians over the years have tried to make Genesis into a lab report of how God made the world. I think the first chapters of the Bible are written to explain WHO made us and WHY, not HOW and WHEN: I think Genesis is answering the philosophical question. There's the poetic form to the words, there's the different order of Creation in Chapter one to chapter two with each one making its own theological point. There seems to be a definite polemic to it as though it is being written specifically combat the other creationist accounts that seemed to be going on in the ancient world. So while I think it is entirely possible for the God described in The Bible to create the world in 6 days or in an instant, I'm not convinced that it must be read that way; I think the jury is still out. What Genesis does definately affirm is that you and I are not some gigantic fluke. You are not just some meaningless bag of chemicals waiting to return to the dust. You have been designed and purposely made and there is something about us that sets us apart from the rest of what has been made. Somehow we bear the stamp of God himself! Jellyfish, dogs, and rocks cannot know God but you and I can and should ackowledge the one who has made us.

So why God? Why Jesus? Why not Buddha or Muhammod's God? Why the Christian God?

You need to explore that one yourself.

I believe in Jesus, I don't blindly believe, I think about why and I welcome anyone to challenge what I have said so in turn I can further reflect on your arguments.
Here are a few final questions and statements I put forward to you?
1. The Bible is the word of God.
Many people will dispute this and I look forward to hearing the arguments. Let me say this: The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God. In Christianity The Old Testament is not 'that old part that no christian reads!'. It is all the word. It is amazing that such a book still survives! There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great! The Bible was written over a period of a few thousand years by over 40 authors, of whom there is barely a connection (with the exception of a few New Testament writers). Yet over this 3000 year period this book has formed with prophecies in the Old Testament which Jesus fulfillled. It all makes sense when read, connections between the Old Testament and New Testament are all over the place.
That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred.
2. The Bible is historically accurate
The four gospels are eyewitness testimonies of the life of Christ. They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did.
People may argue that the writers could have made it up that Jesus was God and did that for their religion, well first of all: The books were written not 90 years after the death of Christ but were written within 30 years of his death. Paul's letters began to be written only 4-5 years after his death and there were people alive then who would have contested what the books said but no one did.
Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie? A lie that they made up? Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth?
The Good news is that God has not left us floundering in the dark. The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe. The fact that Jesus got up from being dead double underlines who he is. God. Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information.
3. Here is an awesome book I have read, it was written by a journalist who actually started out as an atheist and then began exploring the Christian faith and converted. The book is called, "The Case for Christ" by Lee Strobel. It is a great read for Non-Christians and Christians alike. Anyhow I think I have said enough. Bye all. Hope this makes sense...

Quick, someone help this man! He's been possessed by James Joyce!

Seriously, a "few" more paragraphs and perods are in order.

[Alexander's Horse]

jesus is taking a hammering in the poll

[Dr. Stiby]

I only believe in the Divine Power of the Banana

[Black Knight84]

Re: Re: Why God??!!

Originally posted by The Mad Monk Quick, someone help this man! He's been possessed by James Joyce!

Seriously, a "few" more paragraphs and perods are in order.

Yeah sorry about that, I wasn't really worrying about grammar when writing it up. Forgive my ignorance but who is James Joyce?

[Alexander's Horse]

A vote for Rc is not a vote for Jesus?

[The Mad Monk]

A vote for Protetantism is a vote for Jesus!

Black Knight: google "Finnegans Wake".

[Black Knight84]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
A vote for Protetantism is a vote for Jesus!

Black Knight: google "Finnegans Wake".

The title of the poll is "I believe in..."

That is why Catholicism and Protestantism is separate. I would be wary even in Protestant churches because "Protestantism" is a form of ideology with many many variations. A true believer would say I believe in Jesus over Protestantism any day. Being a Christian is not about belonging to a particular 'religous' sect, it's about believing in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. I just wanted to strip it all down to the bare bone and not have the ideologies on top, if that makes any sense. Also I wanted to challenge people, do they put their faith more in their Church or what The Bible says (ideally the Church should be basing their ideas off the Bible in any case but sometimes people forget the context of the Bible). I have heard of Uniting Churches going off at Baptist Churches for the whole 'full submersion' deal for baptism. Plus I have heard of other churches going on about the prosperity gospel, and others going on about people who speak in tongues are more filled with the holy spirit. Then there is the whole free will vs God's sovereignty debate which is going on between various protestant churches with differing stances all round. I mean alot do share the underlying principle that Jesus is Lord etc however I just wanted to seperate Church Dogma from faith in Christ.

[The Mad Monk]

The problem is, without specifity, it's hard to say what is really being believed in.

For example, a lot of poeple belive in Jesus, the same way they believe in George Washington or Ghengis Khan. I'm fairly sure that's not what you intend.

[The Mad Monk]

There are hoards of people out there who will say "I belive in Jesus", without having the slightest clue of who they are talking about, outside of a nativity display at Christmas, and maybe a church service at someplace nearby at Easter.

[Black Knight84]

This is true, but I think it shall also make people who actually do believe in Jesus but belong to other groups think for a second, and that is the point of the poll in some ways. But you do have a good point. Let's all thank God that it is only an Apolyton Poll and not a national survey, hehe. ...

[LDiCesare]

1. The Bible is the word of God.

Prove it first. It's been written by men. The only books I know which are said to have been written by or under the dictation of (a) god are the Mahabharata and the Quran.

The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God.

It's the word because it's the word of God. Now that explains all.

It is amazing that such a book still survives!

Well, it's even more amazing that Gilgamesh epics still survive. They are older than the Bible, after all...

There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great!

Because more people believed in the Christian god than in Alexander god.

That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred.

In order to believe in miracles, you first have to believe in God, so this is circular logic.

They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did.

If I invented a religion and asked four persons to write about it, they'd probably end up writing similar things. The veracity of the events is not proved by this.

Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie?

Who in their right mind? Well, maybe those who did weren't in their right mind.

Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth?

Ever seen a mob act rationally?

The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe.

That's actually catholics who said that. Others said he was a mortal. If you read the Bible, please tell us where Jesus says he is God. There has been so many fights in particular in Constantinople over the nature of Jesus that you can't pretend to know it from the Bible. It's not written there.

Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information.

Isn't this propaganda?

!bk, did you read books of other religions? Quran, Vedas, whatever?

[self biased]

i worship the almighty banana.