Why God??!!

[Dr Strangelove]

Why did you bother to list some of the various sects of Christianity? Are you implying that Protestants, Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in Jesus?

[Black Knight84]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Why did you bother to list some of the various sects of Christianity? Are you implying that Protestants, Catholics, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses don't believe in Jesus?

Yes some don't, but then some do.

[Arrian]

Islam 1 1.82%
Catholicism 2 3.64%
Jesus 7 12.73%
Mormon 1 1.82%
Jehovah's Witness 0 0%
Protestantism 8 14.55%
Hmm not sure 9 16.36%
There is no God 24 43.64%
Hinduism 1 1.82%
Buddhism 2 3.64%

Excellent show, polytubbies.

-Arrian

[alva]

If religion equals belief, how can one vote "not sure". Seems rather strange, no?


-
I voted no God....shocking eh.

Islam  	 	1  	1.72%

Catholicism 		2 	3.45%

Jesus 		7 	12.07%

Mormon 		1 	1.72%

Jehovah's Witness 		0 	0%

Protestantism 		8 	13.79%

Hmm not sure 		10 	17.24%

There is no God 		26 	44.83%

Hinduism 		1 	1.72%

Buddhism 		2 	3.45%

[Black Knight84]

Originally posted by Kucinich

1. The Bible is the word of God.
Many people will dispute this and I look forward to hearing the arguments. Let me say this: The Old Testament and New Testament make up the Word of God. In Christianity The Old Testament is not 'that old part that no christian reads!'. It is all the word. It is amazing that such a book still survives! There are more historical manuscripts of The Bible than of Alexander the Great! The Bible was written over a period of a few thousand years by over 40 authors, of whom there is barely a connection (with the exception of a few New Testament writers). Yet over this 3000 year period this book has formed with prophecies in the Old Testament which Jesus fulfillled. It all makes sense when read, connections between the Old Testament and New Testament are all over the place.
That is pretty miraculous that this has occurred.

A really big non sequiter. I fail to see how any of that actually demonstrates it as the word of god.

2. The Bible is historically accurate
The four gospels are eyewitness testimonies of the life of Christ. They all vary but this proves the validity! What would you believe, four books which said exactly the same thing, or four books which talked about the same thing from different perspectives, yet still unanimously agree on who Christ is and what he did.

So? This isn't evidence that they are correct. I could write four manuscripts, slightly inconsistent with each other, that were all in agreement that Yoplait is the earthly representation of the divine, but that doesn't mean it's true.

People may argue that the writers could have made it up that Jesus was God and did that for their religion, well first of all: The books were written not 90 years after the death of Christ but were written within 30 years of his death. Paul's letters began to be written only 4-5 years after his death and there were people alive then who would have contested what the books said but no one did.

Evidence? This appears to be a bald assertion.

Another thing, who in their right mind would die for a lie?

Millions of German soldiers in WWII? Suicide bombers in Israel?

A lie that they made up?

Self-delusion is a powerful force.

Why is it, that one moment we have a bunch of uneducated fisherman in hiding from the authorities because their cult leader has been killed, in fear for their very lives and then the next moment they are out in force preaching to the Public with massive effect that Jesus rose from the dead and it is through him we can be saved! Most of them died for that LIE... or that ..Truth?

Do you ascribe the same truthood to "suicide cults"?

The Good news is that God has not left us floundering in the dark. The spectacular life of Jesus, demonstrates that he is from God, that he is God, he is outside the Universe. The fact that Jesus got up from being dead double underlines who he is. God.

You have to prove that that happened, first.

Read Hebrews and John and Daniel for more information and talk to your local minister if you are interested in finding out more information.

Sorry, no dice. I was raised Catholic, I had to go to a frigging Catholic school for four years, and I'm glad I escaped. I know enough.

Sorry about the lengthy time to reply. Most probably my answers will not satisfy you guys as I am no theologian scholar however I will try my best.

In answer to your first qualm:

Is the Bible the word of God?
I believe the Bible is the Word of God because it rings true to me.
First of all I would like to ask you a few questions. Who do you think Jesus is? Who does he claim he is? The Bible has about 40 different authors. Yes I admit the Bible was written by men however the Bible reads as if it is written by one author. As I have said, the bible was created over a period of about 3000 years, yet it all makes sense? The vast majority of these authors did not know each other. I would like you to prove to me that the Bible isn't the word of God?! Have you even read it? Have you read all of it? Not just random quotes from various people?

2. In answer to your objection to the historical accuracy of the four gospels.
First of all there are also non-christian sources about Jesus and what he did. Two of the most notable were Josephus (a jewish historian: See "The Works of Josephus") and Tacitus (A Roman Historian see "Annals"). Now onto the gospels: first of all if you had four eyewitnesses to a murder who all testified against the defendant then that defendant would go to jail. Next point: Matthew was a tax collector, another was a fisherman and another was a doctor (can't remember exactly who the others were). Infact I would argue that the disciples themselves were some of the biggest doubters of Christ and his claims until after the resurrection. In Luke 8:22-25 there is a massive storm on the water, Jesus and his disciples are in the boat, they fear for their lives so they wake up Jesus, he calms the storm and then rebukes his disciples, "Where is your faith?" He asked his disciples.
In fear and amazement they asked one another, "Who is this? He commands even the winds and the water, and they obey him". Other examples include the feeding of the 5000, even initially after Jesus' death the disciples did not believe it was true and till Jesus actually appeared to them and showed them his wounds.

So the disciples were probably even more sceptical than you, yet after his death they began a faith which now has approximately 1 billion followers. There are many references to historical places in the gospels which have been traced by historians and found to be true.
This probably ties in with your next objection about German soldier dying for a lie etc. For starters that is a pretty terrible connection you made considering these guys are from completely different contexts. Germany has just suffered a massive depression, the country has gone through hell and back, the people are crying out for a strong leader, I'm sure that many soldiers knew it was a lie but enjoyed it. Germany had the potential to profit out of WWII. On the other hand, the people who wrote the gospels had no motive for profit whatsoever. The only payment they received for their writing was execution and persecution. Furthermore Jesus appeared not only to the disciples after his death but to hundreds of people who were still alive when Paul was arguing this and they didn't contest that. I think it would require more faith to think that the writers of the gospels were deluded delinquints who were experiencing one massive hallucination and were hypnotised as there were just too many people who could verify that Jesus was raised from the dead. Too many people saw him after his death. Even in that small room where Jesus first appeared there was quite a substantial group of people.

I have barely scratched the surface on this. There are whole books dedicated to this issue and if you are interested then read the book I suggested at the end of my first post, in that there are a whole load of references to other books on the topic.

3. Concerning Suicide Cults
Was Jesus teaching Suicide?

4. Jesus is God
I believe that this will also take care of your question LDiCesare. First of all lets see who Jesus by his actions. He is a man running out the middle east creating a whole new religious movement. Healing the sick and raising the dead. This shows that he isn't your average human being, BUT people will say, "didn't he use that by God's authority?". Yes he did, he was God in human form. Now, he has been called, The Son of Man, The Son of God, The Word, The Light and he called himself "I AM" which is in reference to what God called himself when talking to Moses in the desert and burning bush.
In Luke 22:69-70 Jesus is being questioned by the Pharisees as to his identity:
"But from now on, the Son of Man will be seated at the right hand of the mighty God."
They all asked, "Are you then the Son of God?"
He replied, "You are right in saying I am."
Then in Mark 14:62-64 this scene is shown. Also in Matthew 26:64-65.
So Jesus alludes to being "The Son of Man" in Daniel Chapter 7:13-14. In John Chapter One it says, "In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. In him was life, and that life was the light of men. The light shines in the darnkess, but the darkness has not understood it." Then it goes on and finally links this to Jesus. Read the chapter if you want the whole picture.
After all this, Jesus' claim to be God is made crystal clear in Hebrews Chapter 1:5-9
"For to which of the angels did God ever say, "You are my Son; today I have become your father?"
Or again,
"I will be his father,
and he will be my Son?"
And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says,
"Let all God's angels worship him.
...But about the Son he says,
"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever,
and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness:
therefore God, your God, has set you above your companions by anointing you with the oil of joy"
If that isn't enough for you, then Isaiah prophecies the coming of a suffering servant who will bear our sins, read Isaiah 52:13- ch53:12.
Also Psalm 22 Alludes to Christ. In fact there are many more quotes in the Bible where Jesus claims to be God such as John10:31-39.
You may argue that Jesus is mad, yet he could rationally argue and debate with some of the nations top thinkers of the times.

NO i haven't read the koran, but I have read excerpts. I have read books on Islam and other religions and I can say without a doubt in my heart that Christianity sets itself apart from other faiths through the teachings of Jesus and The Bible. So we have four eyewitnesses recording that Jesus claims he is God. Some of the titles he is called such as Son of Man allude to prophetic dreams in the Old testament and concerning Son of God...Jesus is The Son of God and also God. Seems confusing, yes and that is because we are only human. But it is obvious that from the quotes I have told you, Jesus does also claim to be God. Now even without these eyewitnesses we still have the non-historical sources that outline who Jesus claimed to be and what he did, plus we have the other books of the New Testament. Plus we have the entire Old Testament which points to the coming of Christ. So this book written by 40 different people yet still reads the same is alot more significant than the tales of Gilgamesh.

It is proven that there was a historical figure called Jesus of Nazareth. No historian denies that our dating system revolves around Jesus' life and no historian denies that Jesus existed as there is just too lmuch evidence (I can't include everything so I suggest you do your own reading as this is a life and death matter for you). So Jesus definately existed. Numerous accounts of who he claimed to be, he himself claimed he was God so where does that put you? Can you prove to me that all these people are wrong? That Jesus never existed? That he wasn't crucified? Sure the Pharoahs claimed to be gods but then they didn't do all the stuff Jesus did and they don't have such a massive following as Jesus does today. So why don't you prove to me that God doesn't exist? Prove to me that Jesus didn't die for our sins? Prove to me that The Bible isn't The Word of God? If you can do that then you will make me an unbeliever! lol.

Funnily enough some of the most adamant non-believers who set out to take down Christianity were converted. Such as Saul from Tarsus who later was called Paul and who wrote a substantial amount of Books that are now in the New Testament. He was a Pharisee and he hated Christians with a passion until Christ appeared to him and turned him. We're talking about someone who executed and tortured Christians for a living and got enjoyment out of it, and yet he became one of the most prolific writers of the new testament. Now that's a miracle. Are you going to try and argue to me that he was fooled? That he was hypnotised? I think that argument would requre more faith then my belief in the existence of God.

[sorry about the lack of editing guys, I wrote this without spellchecking and it is late and I am tired and I am not getting marked on this at uni so I'm not too worried]

[Arrian]

believe the Bible is the Word of God because it rings true to me.

And it doesn't to others. At the end of the day, all that matters to me is that those who do believe and those who don't will respect each others' beliefs and leave each other the hell alone.

-Arrian, to whom the Bible rings about as true as The Onion

[OneFootInTheGrave]

whether or not God exist can be only decided on the basis of personal experience. The arguments for and against are just meaningless

The "against" side will claim - where do you see God now, and alternatively try to discredit what the believer representatives - such as Churches/Bible were claiming as true.

On the other hands believers will claim one or the other and ultimatley disagree because history is not math.

to cut the chase.

and now give you another bone

if evolution is true - God (or a God like powers being) is inevitable.

[Black Knight84]

Originally posted by Arrian


And it doesn't to others. At the end of the day, all that matters to me is that those who do believe and those who don't will respect each others' beliefs and leave each other the hell alone.

-Arrian, to whom the Bible rings about as true as The Onion

I respect another person's right to believe whatever they want to believe, but I also like to civilly debate topics such as religion and see what people's arguments are against Christianity so that I can be challenged. The best forum for debate is the public arena, and I would love it, if someone stumped me on an issue. I'm not wanting to sound arrogant but I feel that in order to mature in my relationship with Christ I need this outside stimulus because to be honest, I get tired of going to Bible Studying and just listening to people agree with whatever the Bible study leader says. I think if you want to have a good argument for your faith you need to talk to people who are just as passionate as you but are in polarity to you. Anyhow enough said from me, I'm off to bed. I wonder how many flamers will take me down tomorrow.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

dp

[SlowwHand]

Think you might be allowed to being a hand-held fans along?

There is no God 28 45.90%

[LDiCesare]

NO i haven't read the koran, but I have read excerpts.

And you criticize those who have read only parts of the Bible?

As for Jesus being God, I think you should really look at the history of the Nestorian heresy. It is NOT crystal clear from the Bible.

And do the non-Biblic sources you quoted talk about resurrections? Noone denies the historicity of Jesus, but non Christian authors don't talk about his doing anything out of the ordinary that would have required divine powers.

I believe the Bible is the Word of God because it rings true to me.

That's in fact the only good argument you make. You are saying that belief is an act of faith, and thus there is no reasoning about it. There's little point trying to convince people either way. To me the Bible rings... errr, I'd better not say it, you'd be scared.

[Black Knight84]

Originally posted by LDiCesare
And you criticize those who have read only parts of the Bible?

Well like you, who has probably read enough to know you don't believe in Christianity, I have read enough to know that Islam is not for me. I fully intend on reading the entire Koran. I wasn't attacking Islam, I was talking to Kucinich considering that he wanted me to prove that The Bible was the Word of God and I asked him if has read the entire The Bible. Of course it has just dawned upon me that he did say he spent a while in Catholic school so he probably has read The Bible. My bad. People make mistakes when they are tired and talking about complex issues.

[Q Classic]

The title of the poll is "I believe in..."

That is why Catholicism and Protestantism is separate. I would be wary even in Protestant churches because "Protestantism" is a form of ideology with many many variations. A true believer would say I believe in Jesus over Protestantism any day. Being a Christian is not about belonging to a particular 'religous' sect, it's about believing in Jesus as your Lord and Saviour. I just wanted to strip it all down to the bare bone and not have the ideologies on top, if that makes any sense. Also I wanted to challenge people, do they put their faith more in their Church or what The Bible says (ideally the Church should be basing their ideas off the Bible in any case but sometimes people forget the context of the Bible). I have heard of Uniting Churches going off at Baptist Churches for the whole 'full submersion' deal for baptism. Plus I have heard of other churches going on about the prosperity gospel, and others going on about people who speak in tongues are more filled with the holy spirit. Then there is the whole free will vs God's sovereignty debate which is going on between various protestant churches with differing stances all round. I mean alot do share the underlying principle that Jesus is Lord etc however I just wanted to seperate Church Dogma from faith in Christ.

if this is the case, you really ought to separate the several schools of buddhism from each other. some almost deify buddha, while others do not. some believe the path to enlightenment is through rigorous study of the sutras, others believe it is through self-exploration/examination. i can't speak for hinduism, though.

[Arrian]

respect another person's right to believe whatever they want to believe, but I also like to civilly debate topics such as religion and see what people's arguments are against Christianity so that I can be challenged. The best forum for debate is the public arena, and I would love it, if someone stumped me on an issue. I'm not wanting to sound arrogant but I feel that in order to mature in my relationship with Christ I need this outside stimulus because to be honest, I get tired of going to Bible Studying and just listening to people agree with whatever the Bible study leader says. I think if you want to have a good argument for your faith you need to talk to people who are just as passionate as you but are in polarity to you.

Well, thumbs up to you for this

I'm just not up for it now. Maybe some other time. This debate has been done here a lot, and usually lacks the civility you mention. Sleep well.

-Arrian

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Black Knight84
Since when did an opinion become a propaganda dump? Does that then classify everyone's opinion on this topic as 'propaganda' or is it just because I touched on an issue that some people are touchy with? Or is it because I'm a Christian?

It is a propaganda dump, because
1. you solely came to Apolyton to speak about God, and you have contributed absolutely nothing else than that on this fansite dedicated to civilization games. As such, you easily fall in the category of "guy browing forums at random looking for converts"
This is even clearer since you are not a forum newbie, as showed by your use of the poll function, and your knowledge of words like "troll", on your very first thread. You clearly have an experience in other forums.

2. Your opening post seems to be solely about preaching that God is true. And you even end it saying "if you're interested, go speak to your local priest". Nothing wrong with propaganda - I even made it my job for two months. However, this is an obvious maneuver to attract people to the church.

Be honest: did you come to Apolyton in order to have people discover the Christ and start believing in him?