Israel Kills Rantisi, New Hamas Leader.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Azazel
HITLER is on a ride with his... son.

That depends. Is Hitler driving around Nazi Germany or in Soviet controled Poland? If the former, you take him out, if the latter, you arrest him.

[Sirotnikov]

To suggest that Israel controls Gaza city to the extent that Soviets control Polland is rediculous.

We control Gaza no more, probably less, than US forces control Faluja.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
I suspect lotm was joking


.

The jokes been around since shortly after 9/11, with various founding fathers telling Osama where to go. The coincidence of Rantissi meeting his well deserved fate the same weekend that took Ellis' "Founding Brothers" out of the library overcame my joke inhibition factor.

I was thinking of leaving out the more obvious guys, and just mentioning Edmund Randolph, George Mason, etc (Geez, there were ALOT of influential Virginians in the US in the 1790's! With some research it should be possible to get 72 relatively significant figures, without going beyond the Federal period) .Apparenttly it was too subtle even with Washington, TJ, etc left in.

[GePap]

As far as Israel is concerned Hamas has already taken the gloves off, and is doing everything they can anyway. Israel wont tolerate this, and will do whatever is necessary to destroy Hamas.

And if nastier regimes have been unable to fully wipe out less popularly supported organizations, what makes Israel think the heavy hand of military strikes will finish off Hamas?

Sure, they have weakened Hamas temporarilly (though build up more support), but Hamas will have the time to morph and adapt to the new conditions.

As for Dahlan-Why would Dahlan be stupid enough to take Gaza? 100 ways in which he can fail and all the blame falls on him, not Hamas, not Yassir-just him.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap

As far as Israel is concerned Hamas has already taken the gloves off, and is doing everything they can anyway. Israel wont tolerate this, and will do whatever is necessary to destroy Hamas.

And if nastier regimes have been unable to fully wipe out less popularly supported organizations, what makes Israel think the heavy hand of military strikes will finish off Hamas?

Perhaps they dont think all strategies against terrorism can be fully evaluated based on "nastiness".

If anything there recent strategy is not to up the nastiness - theyre focusing on killing leaders, and are killing rather fewer civilians than they did in 2002. And of course they are, apparently, withdrawing from Gaza.

Dahlans motivations - I dont, know, just as i dont know his motivation for wanting to take over PA security forces under Abu Mazen, which also was risky. I suppose he wants power, and is evaluating the risks in grabbing it now versus waiting. Now Im not saying I know Dahlan is part of Sharons plan - I dont - but IF Sharon has a plan, I think it WOULD involve manipulation of Gaza politics, and it would thus be secret. I also suspect theres some intention to pressure Egypt to take control of at least some border points.

I dont know that this plan will work as intended - but i also think it doesnt make sense to dismiss it out of hand and pretend that the attacks on the Hamas leadership are just part of a contextless cycle of violence, when they are almost certainly part of a political plan.

[GePap]

I support Sharon getting the hell out of the Gaza settlements, but it would be nice if
a. he would not retain control of the border with Egypt and still think Israel will have no more responsibilities to the Pals. there
b. Israel realized that no one in the PA is ready to manage Gaza, not in the current condition.

Gaza is Hamas' home for a reason-the crushing poverty and the preponderance of refugees over pre-48 families. While Israel has weakened Hamas as an organization, as a political force it remains as popular, and Dahlan has shown no base of support for him, and he has to worry about PA rivals and the Islamists and ....

[Az]

Actually, Israel doesn't control Gaza city all.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by GePap
I support Sharon getting the hell out of the Gaza settlements, but it would be nice if
a. he would not retain control of the border with Egypt and still think Israel will have no more responsibilities to the Pals. there
b. Israel realized that no one in the PA is ready to manage Gaza, not in the current condition.

Gaza is Hamas' home for a reason-the crushing poverty and the preponderance of refugees over pre-48 families. While Israel has weakened Hamas as an organization, as a political force it remains as popular, and Dahlan has shown no base of support for him, and he has to worry about PA rivals and the Islamists and ....

What are Israels responsibilities in Gaza?? To maintain order, protect law abiding residents from thugs, etc? AFAIK Israel doent have the ability to do that NOW - damn, if I was a lawabiding Gazan, I sure wouldnt rely on the IDF to protect me. Thats the whole point, to economize force by pulling the indefensible settlers out. And since the Palestinians are always saying how much they hate the settlements, etc well.....

Israel will still have security concerns in Gaza. Thats cause Israels concerns in the territories are fundamentally about terrorism into Israel, NOT about protecting the settlements. Ultimately this is about establishing that, and eventually following it up on the West Bank. Its far easier to start with Gaza from the POV of Israeli politics, cause the Gaza settlements are less emotional than even the remote West Bank ones. And MAYBE there is a belief that the political situation can resolve itself favorably in Gaza, creating a power base for a Dahlan-type.

[GePap]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


What are Israels responsibilities in Gaza?? To maintain order, protect law abiding residents from thugs, etc? AFAIK Israel doent have the ability to do that NOW - damn, if I was a lawabiding Gazan, I sure wouldnt rely on the IDF to protect me. Thats the whole point, to economize force by pulling the indefensible settlers out. And since the Palestinians are always saying how much they hate the settlements, etc well.....

Israel controls trade in and out-so Israel has a big say in the economic life of Gaza, or will if they keep control of all entrance and exits.

Israel will still have security concerns in Gaza. Thats cause Israels concerns in the territories are fundamentally about terrorism into Israel, NOT about protecting the settlements. Ultimately this is about establishing that, and eventually following it up on the West Bank. Its far easier to start with Gaza from the POV of Israeli politics, cause the Gaza settlements are less emotional than even the remote West Bank ones. And MAYBE there is a belief that the political situation can resolve itself favorably in Gaza, creating a power base for a Dahlan-type.

Gaza certainly its the simplest place to start for Israel. It's also a ****hole which the PA won;t me ready to control that well.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Spiffor

I have stopped talking about it, because I think the cycle of violence and hatred has pretty much reached full velocity.

Oh no. I can imagine velocities at least an order of magnitude greater.

[The Mad Viking]

Originally posted by Agathon
Both he and Kissinger. I wouldn't call either of them lefty commie sympathisers.

Brzezinski's Grand Chessboard book is a good read. It's a thesis on the responsible use of American power.

The fascinating thing is one realizes that the US has actually served to keep Isreali heavy-handedness in check, in the past.

I saw a Pal interviewed who said there is no chance this happens w/o US sanction. (At least, fore-knowledge & no objection).

Good job, Dubya....

[The Mad Monk]

A random Pal-in-the-Street is an expert in U.S.-Israel relations.

Riiiiight.

[pchang]

If someone says it enough times, there will be others that will begin to believe it. The Arab world creates its own reality and it usually has very little in common with true reality.

[The Mad Viking]

Do either of you believe that Isreal would risk offending the US by assassinating arab leaders w/o even mentioning it to them first???

[Sirotnikov]

Gaza certainly its the simplest place to start for Israel. It's also a ****hole which the PA won;t me ready to control that well.

Gaza is a bee hive controlled by Al-Aqsa brigades (fatah) and Hamas.

Gaza is the most difficult place to start for Israel. That's why it was never fully occupied.

Do either of you believe that Isreal would risk offending the US by assassinating arab leaders w/o even mentioning it to them first???

1. Since when is Rantisi an arab leader? He's a rather popular leader of a terrorist group. that's it.

2. The US already sanctions every step possible against Hamas, PIJ and Tanzim.

3. Rumor has it, that when Israel calls it to tell about it's actions against terrorist movements, American leaders tend to ask "did you kill [insert name] too? Not yet? Why not?". Infact, in 2002, just before Defensive Shield, iirc Powell asked "did you wack him yet?" meaning Arafat.