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  • #316
    Originally posted by Derekrage
    The UN and EU are simply treaties between nations, Britain is our country so it deserves our loyalty, and in the end what is good for the country as a whole will benifit the individual. Therefore it is in our individual interests to support our country.
    And what, the Act of Union between Scotland and England wasn't a treaty between nations? I mean, Britain wasn't even a country until a few hundred years ago so why the great loyalty? Had history been slightly different, you may be have been equally adamant about pushing English loyalty and poo-pooing the idea of a "Britain" with those strange Scottish neighbours of ours. I still don't see how a nation is anything more than a temporary arrangement of power.

    For the record, the only thing in individual interests is to maximise individual possibilities. I support the UK when and if it allows me to meet this aim. There's no disloyalty in pointing out areas where it fails to do so. Tying yourself to one country is a needless limitation of potential.
    Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
    -Richard Dawkins

    Comment

    • #317
      The UN and EU are simply treaties between nations, Britain is our country so it deserves our loyalty, and in the end what is good for the country as a whole will benifit the individual. Therefore it is in our individual interests to support our country.
      Why should I feel loyalty to this country, more so than I feel loyalty to say, Saudi Arabia? We can turn that argument around and say that it is in the individuals greater interest to align himself with the greatest possible group, that is the human race or those that think, rather than some artificially small fallacious distinction like Britain. You need to explain to me why I should support Britain exclusively like you, and why I am wrong not to do so.
      "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
      "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

      Comment

      • #318
        And what, the Act of Union between Scotland and England wasn't a treaty between nations? I mean, Britain wasn't even a country until a few hundred years ago so why the great loyalty? Had history been slightly different, you may be have been equally adamant about pushing English loyalty and poo-pooing the idea of a "Britain" with those strange Scottish neighbours of ours. I still don't see how a nation is anything more than a temporary arrangement of power.
        What I mean is that the EU is not a country, at the moment it is simply a glorified free trade zone. The Act of Union created a new nation with one head of state (however I still consider myself English aswell as British). Even if it is a temporary arrangement of power that doesn't mean you shouldn't be loyal to that nation.

        Why should I feel loyalty to this country, more so than I feel loyalty to say, Saudi Arabia? We can turn that argument around and say that it is in the individuals greater interest to align himself with the greatest possible group, that is the human race or those that think, rather than some artificially small fallacious distinction like Britain. You need to explain to me why I should support Britain exclusively like you, and why I am wrong not to do so.
        Because you are a British citizen, you live here, this country has given every British citizen the opportunity to live a life of freedom, security and relative comfort and we should work hard to be sure that the British citizens that come after us are given the same opportunity.
        "When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone, whatever they did, their Generals told their Prime Minister and his divided cabinet that in three weeks, England would have her neck wrung like a chicken - Some chicken! Some neck!" --Winston Churchill, speech made to the Canadian Parliament on December 30, 1941.

        Comment

        • #319
          Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

          Comment

          • #320
            chegitz guevara- Whats so funny?
            "When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone, whatever they did, their Generals told their Prime Minister and his divided cabinet that in three weeks, England would have her neck wrung like a chicken - Some chicken! Some neck!" --Winston Churchill, speech made to the Canadian Parliament on December 30, 1941.

            Comment

            • #321
              Anyone taking nationalism seriously.
              Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

              Comment

              • #322
                I can say the same about communism.
                "When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone, whatever they did, their Generals told their Prime Minister and his divided cabinet that in three weeks, England would have her neck wrung like a chicken - Some chicken! Some neck!" --Winston Churchill, speech made to the Canadian Parliament on December 30, 1941.

                Comment

                • #323
                  This from someone who takes communism seriously.
                  ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
                  ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

                  Comment

                  • #324
                    Don't make me get mean.
                    Christianity: The belief that a cosmic Jewish Zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in humanity because a rib-woman was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree...

                    Comment

                    • #325
                      oops, x-post
                      ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
                      ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

                      Comment

                      • #326
                        Fear the communist kitty!
                        ...people like to cry a lot... - Pekka
                        ...we just argue without evidence, secure in our own superiority. - Snotty

                        Comment

                        • #327
                          What I mean is that the EU is not a country, at the moment it is simply a glorified free trade zone. The Act of Union created a new nation with one head of state (however I still consider myself English aswell as British). Even if it is a temporary arrangement of power that doesn't mean you shouldn't be loyal to that nation.
                          Why? Why should I be loyal? Thus far you have been unable to provide me with a satisfactory explanation for that, leaving the Milgram hypothesis of the limited span of sympathy well and truly intact.

                          Because you are a British citizen, you live here, this country has given every British citizen the opportunity to live a life of freedom, security and relative comfort and we should work hard to be sure that the British citizens that come after us are given the same opportunity.
                          I don't deny that my life here is good, but that is because my family work hard, because I work hard. Anything related to that is the countries economic etc policy, but again why do I owe that my allegience? Why should I take that as part of my own identity (which is after all what you are asking) when I consider it merely environmental. In terms of British citizens maintaining that, I wouldn't want that at the expense of the rest of the world, where only 1% of the worlds population live on this island, should the 99% have to suffer for us?

                          I can say the same about communism.
                          Communism is a completely different animal to nationalism, whereas nationalism is specific communism covers myriad areas, and as I have stated on other threads, there are numerous communist elements in any society. It goes without saying with any considerable number of people. So no dice.
                          "I work in IT so I'd be buggered without a computer" - Words of wisdom from Provost Harrison
                          "You can be wrong AND jewish" - Wiglaf :love:

                          Comment

                          • #328
                            Originally posted by Derekrage


                            What I mean is that the EU is not a country, at the moment it is simply a glorified free trade zone. The Act of Union created a new nation with one head of state (however I still consider myself English aswell as British). Even if it is a temporary arrangement of power that doesn't mean you shouldn't be loyal to that nation.

                            Because you are a British citizen, you live here, this country has given every British citizen the opportunity to live a life of freedom, security and relative comfort and we should work hard to be sure that the British citizens that come after us are given the same opportunity.
                            Yes but because they are only temporary arrangements my loyalty to them can only be expected to be temporary. Yes, this country is a very nice place to live in. So was Canada. So was America. I returned to the UK because it was in my own personal best interests to do so. I'll stay in the UK and be "loyal" as long as I can further myself. If circumstances were to change unfavourably to myself then I would not balk at the consideration of moving again. The realisation of personal abilities is the summon bonum of human existence.

                            As such, we've got to realise that we can't just work for one "nation". The only true nation there is is Humanity, all others fade from time. The Third-World farmer in Africa is just as deserving of my energy and toil to help improve his life as is anyone British. At the end of the day, we all die the same and we'll never know until that day whether we get bright shiny Heaven or cold Nothingness. So the only world that matters, the only life that counts is this life. This world. It's not a matter of being British and looking out for ourselves. It's a matter of being Human and trying to help Humanity.
                            Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
                            -Richard Dawkins

                            Comment

                            • #329
                              Why? Why should I be loyal? Thus far you have been unable to provide me with a satisfactory explanation for that, leaving the Milgram hypothesis of the limited span of sympathy well and truly intact.
                              1. Because you are a citizen of this country.
                              2. Because you and your family(I assume) and friends live here.
                              3. Because you are a citizen, everything bad that happens to this country will have an adverse effect on you.
                              4. An emotional attachement to this country like you feel towards a family member or friend.

                              However it has become clear to me that you do not have an emotional attachement to Britain and that is the main difference between us.


                              I don't deny that my life here is good, but that is because my family work hard, because I work hard. Anything related to that is the countries economic etc policy, but again why do I owe that my allegience? Why should I take that as part of my own identity (which is after all what you are asking) when I consider it merely environmental. In terms of British citizens maintaining that, I wouldn't want that at the expense of the rest of the world, where only 1% of the worlds population live on this island, should the 99% have to suffer for us?
                              You and you're family might work hard but so do people in Africa and they live in poverty, the difference between them and us is that we were born into a country that has educated us and given us the opportunity to make a good life. British citizens (not citizens of Saudi Arabia) provide us with security and justice as policeman fireman and Judges. If my kids and your kids and every other British citizens' children can have the same opportunties and freedoms as us at the price of the rest of the world, then I pick us anyday of the week.
                              "When I warned them that Britain would fight on alone, whatever they did, their Generals told their Prime Minister and his divided cabinet that in three weeks, England would have her neck wrung like a chicken - Some chicken! Some neck!" --Winston Churchill, speech made to the Canadian Parliament on December 30, 1941.

                              Comment

                              • #330
                                Originally posted by Derekrage
                                1. Because you are a citizen of this country.
                                True.

                                2. Because you and your family(I assume) and friends live here.
                                Half right. A large portion of my immediate family and close friends live in Canada.

                                3. Because you are a citizen, everything bad that happens to this country will have an adverse effect on you.
                                True. But gee, bad things happening in other parts of the world also have an effect on me. It's almost like the world is interconnected or something.

                                4. An emotional attachement to this country like you feel towards a family member or friend.

                                However it has become clear to me that you do not have an emotional attachement to Britain and that is the main difference between us.

                                You and you're family might work hard but so do people in Africa and they live in poverty, the difference between them and us is that we were born into a country that has educated us and given us the opportunity to make a good life. British citizens (not citizens of Saudi Arabia) provide us with security and justice as policeman fireman and Judges. If my kids and your kids and every other British citizens' children can have the same opportunties and freedoms as us at the price of the rest of the world, then I pick us anyday of the week.
                                But here's the thing...ever play the Six Degrees game? We're all interconnected. We can't just go around pushing our agenda through regardless of the effect on anyone else like the bratty kid on the playground. Cause that kid gets his ass whooped. Sacrificing the rest of the world to secure our immediate future only ends up ****ing us over in the long run. You seem to have a very short term view of things. That African farmer and pro-British policies on, say, being self-sufficient in food on this Isle may seem like two completely unrelated concepts but they're not. When he migrates because he can't, like you know, farm profitably due to us it becomes our problem. It's of no benefit to us if we do things to improve our lives at the expense of others.
                                Exult in your existence, because that very process has blundered unwittingly on its own negation. Only a small, local negation, to be sure: only one species, and only a minority of that species; but there lies hope. [...] Stand tall, Bipedal Ape. The shark may outswim you, the cheetah outrun you, the swift outfly you, the capuchin outclimb you, the elephant outpower you, the redwood outlast you. But you have the biggest gifts of all: the gift of understanding the ruthlessly cruel process that gave us all existence [and the] gift of revulsion against its implications.
                                -Richard Dawkins

                                Comment

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